I have some questions regarding Burr Smith...
First, a little technical one... He was a T/4 (technician 4th grade) prior to D-Day... Is this rank the same thing than T/SGT (technical sergeant)???? I think not, but i want to make sure. I'm not from the U.S., so i'm not really familiar with U.S. Army ranks (i'm from France, where ranks are a bit different)...
Anyway... i also wanted to know what was his duty in Easy Company HQ section prior to D-Day (according to his daughter, he "was with Company HQs for 4 months before D-Day for some reason")... I mean, according to the US Parachute Infantry Company TOE from 1944, there should be only 3 Sergeants in the Company HQs section (and we already had S.Sgt Roberts (mess sergeant), Sgt. Murray (supply/operations sergeant) and Sgt. Riggs (communications)). From some infos that i gathered, Burr Smith became acting operations sergeant after re-organization of the Easy Coy on D Day night until he got wounded in Carentan on june 13th... but what his duty in HQs section BEFORE that...
And when did he returned to the company after being wounded? Did he return to 1st platoon?

I'll answer your first question for you about the rank. The T-4 rank is one rate below the T/Sgt rank, which would also be considered a T-5 for purpose of comparison.

Seconly, Burr Smith's daughter is on the forums here, I'm sure she could answer any questions you may have about Mr. Smith.

See you on the DZ,

Brig

Brig, thanks for the quick answer...
I'm not sure i got well the comparison with the T/5 rank. I always thought that T/5 was the equvalent of a Corporal for technicians and T/4 was the equivalent of a Sergeant for technicians (and T/3 the equivalent for a Staff Sgt for technicians). Am i correct here?
And T/Sgt is higher than this, right? This rank is only used for technicians NCO's?
Actually i'm not even sure i understand clearly the "concept" of technical ranks... The people with those ranks are only soldiers with "technical" duties (communication, whatever), is that it???
Sorry for my lack of knowledge about this... In the french army (as far as i know) you only have two levels for this rank:
- Sergent (or Marechal des Logis for the armored units)
- Sergent-Chef (or Marechal des Logis-Chef)
And i don't think there is any special ranks for specialized/technical duties (i might be wrong, but when i served in a armored regiment, the technicians had same ranks than "regular" soldiers)

You also should consider contacting Long John from this forum. He is the the brother of Burr Smith.

This post has been edited by Jiggersfromsphilly: Apr 15 2006, 08:35 AM

Chris, you have it backwards. T-4 is a corporal. Just like now, an E-4 can be a enlisted rank or NCO rank depending on what position they are serving in. T/5 is equivilent to Sergeant, T/6 to Staff Sergeant. If the number is higher, so is the rank. E-1 = recruit. E-9 equals Sergeant Major.

Are you sure about this rank issue?
I found this website, about WWII us army ranks, take a look at it...
http://www2.powercom.net/~rokats/wwii_era.html
It is clearly stated here that T-5 and Corporal were equvalent (grade 5, two chevrons), T-4 and Sgt were equivalent (grade 4, 3 chevrons), T-3 and S/Sgt were equivalnet (grade 3)... Also, on this page i discovered that Technical Sgt was the equivalent of First Sgt before sept.42, then was inbetween S/Sgt and 1/Sgt and was just a rank for technical NCO's...
Is this webpage wrong or what?
Still regarding those ranks issue, what exactly is the mission for a Technical Sergeant and for a Master Sergeant/Sergeant Major???
Sorry for all this boring technical questions, but i want to make sure i understand clearly the hierarchy and the specific missions of each soldier in a company...
Does this mean that all Technicians (T-5, T-4, T-3, T/Sgt) were only to serve in HQs section or HQ Companies?
From what Burr Smith's daughter said, he did most of WWII in the 1st platoon (except for a couple of month before D-Day in the HQs section), so i'm a bit confused...
If anyone knows, don't hesitate...

He also was assigned to Chilton Foliat as a jump instructor, so there you go, anoother piece of the puzzle.

Dear Chris,

I am just as confused as you. My dad was a T/4 and I was always told this meant he was a technical sergeant with some specialty. My understanding was he was a demolitions specialist of some sort on D-day. He was always with Easy Company, from Toccoa til Austria. But somewhere in there, just prior to D-day, he was assigned to Easy's company headquarters, not the regiment's headquarters, and lived and worked with the men who eventually went down on Lt. Meehan's plane. Only because that stick was over full did Winters move him to another plane. In Winters' new book he says he put my dad on his own stick, #67, but I show him as being on #68. I don't know if we will ever know. In any event, he obviously was very lucky and survived D-day.

None of the men can recall why he went to Chilton Foliat for a while but he has jumpmaster wings and I have his jump log which shows he made over 45 jumps. My uncle believes he was a teacher for a while at the jumpmaster school. I may have all my terms incorrect. I show him on several first platoon rosters at different times during the war, but Frank Perconte swears my dad was in second platoon for a time and doesn't recall when he came over to first. Johnny Martin told me he was my dad's squad leader in the first platoon. I have gathered bits and pieces and have certain records, but it is all hazy to me as well. He was always referred to as a sergeant in all the paperwork I have (company rosters and such), but was demoted at one point back to private and remained so for the rest of the war. Bill Guarnere told me years ago that once Winters was displeased and demoted someone, he would rarely promote them again. In my dad's own words in a letter to Winters, he says he was demoted for a stupid security breach. I think my uncle told me my dad wrote a letter home giving away their position. I also have copies of certain things the men sent Ambrose when he was writing the book and they always refer to my dad as a sergeant.

I think my understanding was that the technical sergeants had a specialty, like Luz who was a T/5 was a radio man. I don't think there were that many technical sergeants in Easy. I don't believe my dad was ever a platoon squad leader like the other sergeants. However, his closest friends in the war and throughout his life were the men that made sergeant early on, Malarkey, Guarnere, Rader, Ranney, Bain, Randleman, to name a few that come to mind. Perconte also swears my dad didn't return to the company after their wounds on the same day in the attck on Foy until just before VE Day, but I have company rosters that show my dad back from the hospital as a private long before that. I do know that he was a machine gunner and carried a BAR at some point.

The official roster of the men dated May 4, 1944 shows my dad as a T/4 at that time.

It is all very confusing and I need educating on this topic as well! I just wish my dad was here to explain this all to me!

Susan

One more comment...my dad clearly was not just a soldier with technical duties. My understanding from his own writings is that he was a demolitions specialist of some sort for D-day, but was a machine gunner after that. Earl McClung told me years ago that himself, Earl, had the reputation of killing the most Germans in Easy Company and he always felt bad about that because as a machine gunner, he said my dad clearly killed more soldiers than Earl did. He said my dad would clear the fields and then Earl and the others would go in afterwards....that is simplifying it of course, but the gist of it was that Earl felt embarrassed that this was attributed to him, not my dad. And Bull Randleman's wife told me after Bull passed away that he felt my dad never got the credit he deserved for the fine soldier that he was and she said he mentioned this often. It is clear in my mind, at least, that many of the men respected his contributions to Easy Company and I am very proud of him.

The roster for company headquarters of the men who were killed shows the following:

1st Sgt. William Evans
Sgt. Elmer Murray
S/Sgt. Murry Roberts
Sgt. Richard Owen
Sgt. Clifford Halstead
Sgt. Carl Riggs
T/4 Benjamin Stoney
T/5 Jerry Wentzel
T/5 Ralph Wimer
T/5 Hermin Collins

It is clear there were more than 3.

My dad did return to first platoon after his wounds at Carentan and remained assigned to them for the remainder of the war, even after returning from his wounds at Foy.

Susan

This post has been edited by SusanSmithFinn: Apr 15 2006, 11:22 AM

I've always wondered how Mr. Smith could have been left out of the BOB story (book and movie). I know he was mentioned a few times in the book but not prominently. You could fill a book/movie with just Mr. Smith's many exploits throughout his life.

Susan,

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my question regarding your father...
I can obviously agree that it's both sad and weird that his was left off the BoB serie/book.

Yes, from the rosters i have and from the infos i have gathered, it seems like there was only one T-4 in easy (your father), and one Technical Sergeant (James Diel, but he is also often referred as S/Sgt, so i'm not even sure he was a T/Sgt, or maybe just for a time). From my understanding, your father never was a platoon leader, you're right... that's exactly the reason i did post this message, because i was wondering what truly was his function in the company. If he was a technician with special abilities, isn't it weird that he was used as a regular trooper (not that this is bad to be "just" a trooper, of course... this isn't my point)? And isn't it weird that a man with such a rank and experience was kept without "authority" or specific "technical" jobs in the company? That's really why i wanted to know if someone had ever heard of him having a special duty in the company, except for this couple of days in june 44, where he became acting operations sergeant after the death of Sgt Murray...

As far as i know, Sgt Clifford Halstead was in regimental HQ Company, not in Easy. And T/4 Benjamin Stoney was transfered to HQ 2/506 before D Day (he is not listed anymore in the may 1944 roster). Are you sure Sgt Richard Owen was in the HQs section of Easy???

Do you have any infos of when exactly your father was demoted back to private?

Anyway, thanks a lot for all your nice and clear informations.
Do you happen to have typed rosters for Easy company? (or even scans, of course). I have only two rosters (09/43 and 05/44), so if you have more and are willing to share them, you can PM me or something.

Thanks a lot,
Chris

This post has been edited by Chris Tophe: Apr 15 2006, 01:15 PM

Dear Susan,

Thank you so much for all these fine explanations.

Nathalie

LOL, I checked out that web link Chris, it is as clear as mud. I found some other written sources which contradict that information. Then in 1948, they changed it again and you had the Specialist rates replacing the old Tech rates. Now, I can tell you that Spec rates went from Spec-4 up to Spec-9. It does seem odd that the military would pay a soldier E-9 pay and expect no NCO responsibilities from them. I have a strong feeling that the senior Specs would have had some sort of authority, even if it was informal. Then the Spec ranks were eliminated, except Spec-4, because the army was faced with hi paid techs who were not providing any leadership role. No one ever said the army is smart when it comes to these things!

See you on the DZ,

Brig

Snookums,

You - and the rest of the gang - have a problem with military rank designations, but I think I can clear that up for all of you.

There is an essential difference between Technical Sergeant (T-6) and Sergeant Technician (T-4) Technical Sergeant is three stripes up, two rockers down. Staff Sergeant is three stripes up, one rocker down, and Sergeant Technician is three stripes with a T under the stripes. An E-4 (Sergeant) has command authority over a T-4, Sergeant (E-4) being Operational and T-4 being Technical. You might look at is as one being a Line rank (Sgt) and the other being a staff rank (T-4)

Your dad was a Sergeant Technician (T-4), a demolitions specialist and machinegunner with the 1st Platoon of Easy Company ... until Major Dick Winters busted him back to Pvt. at Kaprun, Austria for a security breach in a V-mail (Victory Mail) to your grandparents (reminding me very much of my own enlisted years) I'm not entirely certain, but I think your dad was moved to Hq. & Hq. Co., 2nd Bn, 506th PIR immediately following the NCO mutiny at Aldbourne and was assigned from there to Chilton Foliat as a Jump Master. Again, I have no way of knowing for certain, but I rather imagine he was in Hq. & Hq. Company as a munitions and demolitions planner.

Your Dad, according to Dick Winters (see Beyond Band of Brothers), jumped in Lt. Winters stick on D-Day because the Chalk Number for Hq. and Hq. Company, one aircraft ahead of Winter's Chalk Number, exceeded weight and balance and they had to move two men back one aircraft, thus putting your dad on Dick Winters' aircraft and in his stick on D-Day. And that, I suppose, is why your dad wound up as Lt. Winters' Operations Sergeant from D-Day until he was wounded at Carentan, 2nd Bn. being scattered all over the Cotentin Peninsula and miles from their planned DZ.

If you carefully read Dick Winters' action reports in "Beyond" for Carentan, Market Garden and Foy, you will notice that Lt/Capt/Major Winters always used 1st Platoon to lead the attack, backed by 2nd Platoon and with 3rd Platoon in reserve. In Carentan your dad was in the lead platoon and wounded at the crossroads leading into Carentan, as reported by Dick Winters in "Beyond Band of Brothers." We know from your dad's and Carwood Lipton's letters that he was on the ground next to 1st Sgt. Lipton when he was wounded in the battle for Foy, echoing Dick Winters' recollection of the disposition of 1st Platoon and Easy Company during the attack on Foy.

Anyhow, that's the name of that song.

Love ya,

Unc John

Dear Chris,

A quick reply for now. There were hundreds of men left out of Band of Brothers..there was no way they could include everyone. My dad was actually a character in the script bible but for whatever reason, they took him out. It's not a big issue...men like Sgt. Bob Rader, another Toccoa man and lifelong friend of my dad's, was never mentioned in the series. Hack Hanson. Dewitt Lowery. Many others. I was told long ago by one of the writers that they chose men who for the most part were still alive so they could be used in the narrations, or men who were wounded or died in dramatic ways. I don't know if this is true or not, but it really doesn't matter. There are so many men who were never mentioned in the book OR the series...does that make them any less important? I don't think so. Just saves my dad's life story for me to tell!

Where have you seen rosters and information? The information I have either comes from my dad's own records, or from documents Bill Guarnere let me make copies of several years ago. There were other T4's in Easy Co....my dad and Floyd Talbert wereT/4's. Luz, Carson, Perconte, all T/5's but I show Luz as a T/4 at one point. Bill Maynard was also listed as a T/5 as was Herman Hack Hanson.

I guess I am not sure what you are getting at. I think Winters promoted who he wanted to, whom he had confidence in, but there are only a few slots open for platoon leaders or squad leaders so that doesn't mean any of the others were less qualified. Only so many could be in positions of leadership. I am not sure what you mean by "special duty".

Sgt Clifford Halstead's name is on a roster showing men from company headquarters killed in action along with Benjamin Stoney (whom my dad called "Bulldog"). I am not sure of the accuracy of this info. Where are you reading otherwise? I haven't really studied any of this too closely and don't have a clue. I do not know the accuracy of this list but I got it from Bill. And if you know Bill, he has a photographic memory. These papers were among those submitted to Ambrose when the book was being written and were complied by the men themselves probably, maybe with Jake Powers' help. I have no clue who the source was. Some of the lists I have are also from the 40's, not reconstructions. Jake Powers is probably one of the few people around who has studied all this intently.

The list that shows my dad's promotions and demotions is missing in action! I'll have to ask my sister to send me a copy coz she has the original from his jump journal. I will try to find it.

Thanks for your interest in my dad!

Susan