Montgomery: How does history judge him? Options

[psumner]

I have always been puzzled by Monty. He was seemingly brilliant and bold in N. Africa, during the earlier days when the Axis were still quite a threat. Then, when we really had the momentum and things were turning our way, he seemed timid and defensive, even beligerent towards Patton for wanting to constantly push on towards Germany.

I have read many times that there really wasn't a Monty/Patton feud, as is noted in some documentaries (and especially the movie "Patton" - that was Hollywood), but rather an understanding between the two leaders that they disagreed in part as to tactics, timing and goals.

I have to say, I still don't know how history has judged Monty, especially after Market Garden. Did he lead any other major offensives afterwards?  

Paul

[STRIKEHOLD]

I don’t think Monty was a bad General.  I just think he was average with a great P.R. machine.  He failed at the concept of the high speed, aggressive "blitzkrieg". Montgomery's art of war was extremely detailed planning combined with an overwhelming weight of men and materiel.  However I believe he did not plan well enough for Operation Market Garden.

Montgomery had the resources to pull it off most of the time because of the United States.  I think this is what made him so unpopular with U.S. General Staff.  He was using our troops and our men and was being very arrogant about it. He had a fundamental inability to appreciate American sensitivities.

I believe that his critics started at Normandy when he failed to break out quickly and of course Market Garden.  In the Bulge he was in charge of the forces in the Northern Bulge.  I recall reading somewhere that he was taking credit for saving the American Army in the Ardennes.  It is safe to say he infuriated Eisenhower who had to kiss his tail for political reason.  I remember seeing a picture of the two speaking once.  It looks like Monty just said, something snippy to Ike and Ike  looks like he wants to slap him.

[psumner]

Yeah, I remember that too. I thought that Monty had to apologize, or that Churchill apologized on behalf of England, to Ike and the Americans.

Monty was in the right place at the right time, he just missed his chance of going down in history with the great ones.

Paul

[STRIKEHOLD]

I think your right and Churchill apologized.  I agree Monty should not be considered a great one.  My dad was friends with General Gavin after WWII.  During the war my father never knew Gavin.  Anyway from what my father said at West Point they have a wall with great military victories on it.  On the wall was listed Arnhem.  From what my father told me Gavin was not very happy with that.

[appell8]

Well, Strikehold, the American part of Market-Garden was a pretty impressive accomplishment, with Nijmegen the jewel in the crown.  I can understand why Gavin would not have regarded "Arnhem" as a great military victory, but can understand why West Point would feel proud of the part of the 82nd and 101st.

[STRIKEHOLD]

Appell8,

Yes I agree!!  The 101st and 82nd accomplished all missions.  I looked up the New York Times during this period. You would never have known the 101st and 82nd was involved.  It was all press coming out of Monty's office.  Furthermore it said, very little about any problem at Arnhem.

[usjumper82]

In the great British military tradition, Arnhem was treated as a "glorious defeat".  The British have a history of glorifying their defeats around the world.  It seems to keep that stiff upper lip from getting floppy.  :p  Too many examples to list here.  Isandlwana during the Zulu War comes to mind.

[Dutch Donald]

Couldn't agree more USJumper.

It is the same attitude that the British used when rating 'Saving Private Ryan' or 'Band of Brothers', just because 'the British participation in WW2' was not visable on screen. Well maybe thats because both features are about American outfits and not about a total allied operation !

Anyway: the stiff upperlip of Monty must have flopped a bit after Arnhem. So many casualties amongst all nations. If you visit the Oostenbeek Commonwealth Cemetery you'll find lots of graves of British Airborne chaps 19,18 years old. If you take in consideration the Polish troops that had to cross the river to help out the British...
Maybe Monty wanted to secure his place in History by Market Garden. But he'd better taken notice of the reports of the Dutch underground plus the recon pictures that indicated German Tanks where they shouldn't have been. In stead 'they' dismissed the officer that was rocking the British Showboat, send him on sick-leave.
A Bridge to Far, an Ego to Big ?

[Daffie]

Dutch Donald. In the picture gallery I have posted a picture of Oosterbeek American or Commonwealth cemetary. I'm not entirely sure anymore which one it was, but I was there last year and I found it very impressive to be there.

Daphne

[EasyCo44]

There's a line in SAving PRivate Ryan in which Tom Hanks says Monty's overrated and Ted Danson says "No arguement there"

[EasyCo44]

Should MArket Garden have been attempted? Ike said he needed to but Monty failed.

[appell8]

Dutch Donald, roger that re your comments on Monty.  "An ego too big" indeed.  Bingo, Doug

[appell8]

Ham and Jam: we lost a whole lot of posts in a site meltdown a couple of weeks ago (note the gap between last Spring and late Fall), and perhaps among them are a number of posts that fleshed out various feelings about Montgomery and the British as allies. While the prevailing US view about Montgomery is generally negative, the prevailing view about the British as allies is overwhelmingly positive.

There are exceptions, such as the perceived lack of aggressiveness of the British XXX Corps during Market Garden. But, on the whole, the US feeling about the British as allies during the Cold War and thereafter, including the Gulf War and our present hostilities, is glowingly positive. So don't extrapolate too broadly from what I think to be justified criticism of Monty. y.o.s., Doug

[ham and jam]

The road up which XXX corps would have to travel to reach the bridges was narrow, just wide enough for two vehicles to pass. It was defended by small groups of determined German infantry. As the XXX corps tanks approached, they picked off the leading nine vehicles, bringing the whole column to a standstill. It was 40 minutes before they moved again. Difficult to move an amoured division quickly up a well defended narrow road. A reason for caution at times from Monty maybe due that Britain had been in the war since 1939 and had a very limited amount of troops.

This post has been edited by ham and jam: Oct 10 2005, 10:03 AM

[usjumper82]

Ham & Jam,

First off, I would like to say that I admire the British soldier very much. Especially since they have survived the ordeals they have been put through by their leaders over the years. I also have respect for Monty. I think he was as capable a commander as Patton or Rommell or anyone else at that level.

My intention was to point out the fact that Market Garden was a miserable failure due to many factors (which I detailed in a post that was lost). I stand by my statement regarding the British tradition of glorifying their defeats. I believe this was done for two reasons. The first is to assure the public that all is well. It is difficult to maintain an empire when the people at home begin to question the reasoning behind the accumulation of territory. Second, it serves to properly honor the men whose lives are lost in these battles. Soldiers who fight and lose a battle are no less men than those who fight and win.

This goes to address your comments on the Vietnam War as well. Perhaps if the American press was as enthusiastic as the British press, soldiers returning from Vietnam would not have been reviled and spat upon by middle class micreants with nothing better to do. My history of the 1st Squadron, 9th Cavalry Regt. in Vietnam 1965-1972 should be available in bookstores in a bit over a year. Of course, I highly recommend it!

Finally, my thoughts on the British soldier should be clear. If you notice, my avatar is the Pegasus insignia of the British Airborne. I chose this because of the affection I feel for the British and Canadian Paras who fought side by side with the Americans. I chose it even though I spent 11 years as a US paratrooper (including a combat jump into Panama in 1989).

I hope this clarifies my point for you and assures you that I am most certainly not a "British basher".

See you on the DZ!