The Taking Of Berchtesgaden 1945, Which unit reached there first? Options

[homefront41]

Posted by: FEWIII - Feb 1 2004, 09:37 AM

Hi,

i'm new here (I have been posting at www.tircuit.com) but that one is down for the moment) but since I can't open a new topic, I'll post it here...

I do have a question: was it easy company who took Berchtesgaden or was it us 3rd infantry division? I have been looking at this website and at the bottom you have this statement:

http://www.warfoto.com/berchesg.htm

"The Truth! US View

An Update on the Third Division Confrontation with
Ambrose – Spielberg over Historical Distortion in the Berchtesgaden Capture
by
Sherman Pratt, Lt Col US Army
(Ret), Company Commander,
Company L, 7th Infantry, WWII
and
Russ Cloer, Capt., I & R Platoon
Leader, 7th Inf. Regt., 3rd Inf. Div.,
VICorp., 7th Army, US Army.

For some months the U.S. Army’s Third Infantry Division vets have been attempting to get Historian Stephen Ambrose and filmmaker Stephen Spielberg (Saving Private Ryan) to set the record straight as to which unit arrived in Berchtesgaden first.

Subsequent to our earlier protests, we now find additional and unimpeachable authorities to support our contentions. We here pass these along to anyone interested in joining us in the struggle to correct the falsehood of Ambrose and Spielberg.

Allied Commander Dwight Eisenhower, and the CG of the 101st Airborne Division, General Maxwell Taylor, have both specifically credited the Third Division with the honor of entering Berchtesgaden first.

In his book, "Crusade in Europe", on page 418, Gen Ike wrote, "On May 4th....the Third Division captured Berchtesgaden," In General Maxwell Taylor’s memoir "Swords and Plowshares", wrote, in part, on page 106, "On May 4th the Division (Taylor’s 101st Airborne) received an order to move on Berchtesgaden....unfortunately a bridge was destroyed on our side of the autobahn so that the 3rd Division got to Berchtesgaden ahead of us on the after-noon of May 4th."

One would think that these two honored and reliable authorities would be more than adequate to result in a retraction and correction by Ambrose and Spielberg.

But so far, in spite of continued complaints no such development has occurred.
Again Hollywood demonstrates it is far more interested in box office receipts than historical accuracy.

Unfortunately, far too many of those men who deserved the tribute, are no longer alive to enjoy it. But little is fair in this life. Those of us who are still here to experience the change are happy to accept it with the same good grace that we volunteered to serve."

can anybody clear this up? sorry if this topic has come up before on this forum but as I said before I'm brand new here... thanks.

Pieter

[Lipton]

Posted by: FEWIII  -  Feb 1 2004, 09:37 AM
was it easy company who took Berchtesgaden or was it us 3rd infantry division?

101st Division was the first, which has entered Berchtesgaden and soon linked up with French 2nd Armored, which was commanded by Jacques Philipp Leclerc (the first which has entered Paris).

This post has been edited by Lipton: Feb 1 2004, 02:40 PM

[appell8]

We've discussed this before, but my search didn't turn up the thread. So I'll repeat.

As I understand it, there were three prizes in the area: 1) the town of Berchtesgaden; 2) the Berghof, Hitler's residence, in the Obersalzberg, which was in ruins from an allied air raid on it and the surrounding compound; and 3) the Eagle's Nest, a showplace high on the mountain that was only visited by Hitler a couple of dozen times.

It seems clear to me from the weight of the evidence that elements of the 3rd Inf. were first into Berchtesgaden (in part thanks to some blocking actions by the 3rd's commander against the 101st and the French). I don't remember who was first to take the ruins of the Berghof. But I have seen nothing that persuades me that E Co. was not first into the Eagles Nest.

There is an enormous amount of confusion about the Berghof and the Eagle's Nest, which even some serious historians treat as interchangeable.

[FEWIII]

Homefront, thank you for replacing my post, I will use search button in the future, it's all new and alot to learn...

oh well, let me then introduce myself: I'm Pieter, 22 living in Belgium, I've been interested in WWII for years nog (I have a collection of books and pictures concerning the topic) but since 2 years I've been especially a great BOB fan, I really enjoyed the series and every few weeks I have the necessity to watch them all over again.

I've been visiting Foy and Bastogne last week and I took lots of pictures of the foxholes that were dug there during WWII and visited the museums around

I'm glad to have found this site and you'll see more posts from me in the near future. thanks

[appell8]

Pieter, one of our most esteemed members is another Belgian -- Morgy, who lives in Wavre.

Please report to the "Introduce Yourself" thread to tell us more about yourself.

Welcome, Doug

[homefront41]

Here's all I could find from my archives. I'm sure there's more and I'm sorry I cannot properly attribute the second contributor. Perhaps some others can fill in some of that kind of information.

~~
Taking Berchtesgaden

overlord - 08:18PM Sep 02, 2001 (334 of 2911) (HBO Boards)

I was reading the past posts as to the controversy and confusion over the first ones into the town of Berchtesgaden and thought I would offer one more take. My father was a platoon leader in H CO 3rd Bat. 506th. He also took exception to the version written in BOB and wrote a letter to the "Screaming Eagle" the 101st Association magazine and gave his recollections. My father received a personal reply from Carwood Lipton and I reproduce it in part. Lipton writes: "Very early on the morning of May 5th, 1945. Major Winters sent me into Berchtesgaden, along with two or three other officers, to find quarters for my Company. The other officers were to find quarters for their companies. It was not known that the war was almost over and that we would hold in Berchtesgaden for several days."

"The three or four of us went into town in a jeep and when we got there found it practically deserted. I saw no soldiers there, either German or American, except for a dead German soldier lying in the street in front of the railroad station."

"I tried to get the Berchtesgadener Hof hotel for my company, but was told by one of the other officers that it was reserved for Regimental Hq. I found some smaller hotels."

"Later that morning the 506th 2nd Battalion came marching into town with Major Winters leading. They had left their transport outside the town. These were the first American soldiers that I saw in Berchtesgaden other than the officers that I had gone into town with early that morning."

The letter goes on to confirm some info that was not in the book BOB. H company came under fire and took casualties during its approach to Berchtesgaden. These were later to be confirmed as the last "COMBAT" casualties in the Division.

D. Begle (E-mail: foy101@aol.com)
Son of Platoon Leader H Co 3rd Bat. 506PIR

~~~

This is the story of the allied seizure of Berchtesgaden as mentioned in my previous post ~~ unknown
written by Florian M. Beirel.

The seizure of Berchtesgaden was initially the responsibility of the 101st Airborne Division, represented by the 506th Paratrooper Infantry Regiment. The 3rd Infantry Division and the French 2nd Armored Division were also interested in participating in these last war activities. They also wanted to seize Hitler’s well known mountain retreat.

It became known in the meantime that many high ranking Nazi officials were hiding in this area, and that it was most likely poorly defended. The paratroopers received their orders on the night of May 3, 1945. They were to pack heavy ammunition and rations and move on the following morning at 6:00 a.m. by trucks on the autobahn in the direction of Berchtesgaden. Together with the “A Company” of the 321st FA Battalion, the 1st platoon of the “A Company” 81st AA Battalion, and four 75 mm cannons from the 377th Battalion, the units crossed the Inn River near Rosenheim and moved toward Siegsdorf and Inzell. There, the units merged with a tank colony of the French 2nd Armored Division and halted. The famous general, Jacques Phillippe Le Clerk, who with his troops recaptured the occupied city of Paris was among them. The SS had blown up a very important bridge along the Alpenstrasse, and the French units had no engineering equipment with them. The men of 506th immediately started to build a so-called “Bailey Bridge”. The work was complicated by continuous enemy fire from two mountain sites on the opposite side. Only after a group of brave soldiers climbed up the mountain ridge and took care of the persistent defenders could the work to cross the valley proceed.

Colonel Sink, the commanding officer of the unit, had to take into account that, in addition to this bridge, eventually more bridges would be blown up. This could delay the seizure of Berchtesgaden substantially. Therefore, he ordered the 2nd Battalion to withdraw to the autobahn and approach Betchtesgaden via Reichenhall. When the men reached the destroyed Saalach bridge, they ran into units from the 3rd Division who were trying to control an alternate road that was jammed with vehicles. When the division commander, Major General John W. O’Daniel, personally stopped the movement of the 2nd Battalion, the men under Colonel Strayer realized that, at least for the moment, they would not be able to fulfill their orders. At about the same time, the following message reached General Patch in his headquarters of the allied force: “Everybody and his brother wants to get into Berchtesgaden.” This demonstrates the high priority of the seizure of Berchtesgaden in the minds of the commanding officers. Until now, Major General O’Daniel had not been able to seize Berchtesgaden. He was determined not to lose this unique opportunity, even though his “Rock of the Marne” Division could claim many other victories during important battles. Colonel John A. Heintges received orders from him to move as soon as possible with the 7th Infantry, the so-called “Cotton Baler Regiment”, into Berchtesgaden. Early in the morning hours of May 4th, O’Daniel discovered an old railroad bridge, ideal for the movement of his troops. His 2nd Battalion seized important bridges on the Austrian side and also a large part of the city of Salzburg.

According to the orders of his superior officer, his duty was done. Since the paratroopers and the French units, who had joined the forces, were still behind schedule, this order appeared to be inappropriate. Colonel Heintges tried to channel as many men as possible across the narrow bridge. As per the order of the general, the bridge was heavily guarded. Only members of his division were allowed to cross the bridge. As the general was anticipating some opposition, he set up his headquarters near the bridge in Piding in order to be close by. An advance detachment of the 1st Battalion reached Bad Reichenhall
around 9:30 a.m., and took about 3,000 men of the Wehrmacht as prisoners of war. At this time, the 3rd Battalion seized the village of Marzoll. Now, Colonel Heintges gave Lieutenant Colonel Wallace and Major Flynn the order to enter Berchtesgaden. The first battalion was to take the direct route across the Hallthurm Pass. However, they were passed by a scouting unit of the 7th Infantry group under the command of Second Lieutenant William Miller Jr.. For this reason, this group reached Berchtesgaden first, at 3:58 p.m., and together with the men from the 1st Battalion, who had arrived in the meantime, began to take the town. The 3rd Battalion approached Berchtesgaden from a north-easterly direction, from Marzoll via Groding and Markt Schellenberg. They arrived at 4:30 p.m. The Obersalzberg was found abandoned, and the troops immediately pulled down the Swastika banner from Adolf Hitler’s Berghof. The units of the 101st Airborne Division and the French 2nd Armored Division, who in the meantime gave up on the reconstruction of the bridge near Inzell, still stood at the closed railroad bridge at Piding which was guarded by General O’Daniel’s men. In front of the French troops, still in his jeep, was General Le Clerk, nervously watching the prisoners of war as they were brought by their transportation to the various prisoner camps. The guards were still preventing passage: General Le Clerk wanted to see General O’Daniel to find out why. Unfortunately, the conversation was not recorded, but O’Daniel stood firm and initially approved passage for the general himself but not for his troops. In the meantime a heavy traffic jam built up on the Reichsautobahn. Only after General O’Daniel had received the victorious news from the “Cotton Baler” unit did he withdraw guards from the bridge and allow passage. The French troops reached Berchtesgaden around 8:00 p.m. and received the order to occupy the main access roads to the Obersalzberg and the area around the former village of Salzberg. The 2nd Battalion of the 506th Paratrooper Infantry had arrived in the meantime. Only the 3rd Battalion of the unit was kept in Inzell for the purpose of temporarily repairing three bridges. After this task was completed, they were the last unit to reach Berchtesgaden in the afternoon hours of May 5, one day after their
comrades.

On May 5, a very important ceremony took place. The 7th Infantry raised the American Flag over Hitler’s Berghof. The French almost prevented this ceremony because General Le Clerk wanted revenge. He set up a roadblock near the Obersalzberg and did not allow anyone to pass. When it was finally time for the parade, a French colonel appeared on the scene and informed the Americans that the area around the Obersalzberg had been declared a French occupied territory the night before. After a very lively discussion, the decision was made to fly both the “Stars and Stripes” and the “Tricolor”. However, the
French flag was so large and heavy that it continually slid down. Finally, the French officer dropped his request. On May 6th, the 506th Paratrooper Division was preparing for its departure to Bruck/Zell am See when a message from headquarters arrived:

“Effective immediately, all units will remain in their present positions. The army group G of the German Wehrmacht has surrendered. Do not fire against Germans, except when under attack. Please inform the French units in the vicinity accordingly. Details will follow shortly from the commander of the allied forces.” Mayor Sandrock of Berchtesgaden handed over the town of Berchtesgaden to the American leaders of the
Schlossplatz.

The few remaining workers on the Obersalzberg were supervised by Georg Grethlein, head of the joint administration of the Philipp Holzmann/Held und Francke companies. As the two stopped at the Platterhof, he and his driver were shot in their car by a drunken French soldier. At the same time, the 7th Infantry received the order to assemble the whole regiment in Salzburg.

Very reluctantly, O’Daniels’s soldiers handed over the town of Berchtesgaden, which they had reached first, to the 506th Paratrooper Infantry Regiment of the 101st Airborne Division and to the French units. In the following days, the division was able to take some very high-ranking personalities as prisoners, including Dr. Robert Leg and Julius Streicher. Feldmarschall Kesserling was brought from Saalfelden to the Hotel “Berchtesgaden Hof” where a meeting took place with the commander of the 101st Airborne Division, General Maxwell Taylor.

That is the story as he wrote it. On another page of the book was the following story on the occupation of the Teehaus (Eagle’s Nest”) on the Kehlstein Mountain. The Kehlstein Road was in the meantime cleared of Snow, and Colonel Sink was the first officer to ride up to the Teehaus. I won’t type all of this story but the 101st were the first to set foot in the “Eagle’s Nest”. So, from this account a first was accomplished by the 3rd infantry Division for the capture of Berchtsgaden and a first was accomplished by the 101st for the capture of the Eagle’s Nest. Unfortunately it won’t change what is written in the Book by SEA however he is not the only one who has not given credit to the 3rd Inf. Division for the capture of Berchtsgaden. The one mistake I found that our guide made was that she stated that the French 2nd armored division was the first into Berchtsgaden. I discussed this with her during the tour. During a break in the tour is when I purchased this book and I pointed out to our guide Mr. Beierl’s view based on his research so she said she would check into his story. If nothing else maybe the tour guides will now give the 3rd the credit they deserve after many years of passing on to the tourists that the French were the first to take Berchtesgaden.

[Michael Wells]

The courage and sacrifice of the members of the 101st is beyond reproach and is not the true issue here. The issue is the "adjusting" of history to fit an "historian"s book.
Let me quote from Stephen Ambrose himself in his Acknowledgements and Souces section of his book BAND OF BROTHERS. On page 320 Mr. Ambrose states:
"I felt it was my task to make my best judgement on what was true,
what had been misremembered, what had been exaggerated by the old
soldiers telling their war stories, what acts of heroism had been played
down by a man too modest to brag on himself.
In short, I felt that although it was their story, it was my book."
The sources quoted by Russ Cloer and Sherman Pratt are accurate and stand open to examination by anyone at anytime.
I would like to add another source. Donald Burgett, a member of Company A of the 506th PIR states in his book BEYOND THE RHINE, page 132, "By that time the General had received word that the 7th Regiment of the 3rd Division had entered Berchtesgarden...".
The heroism of Mr. Guarnere and his "buddies" of the 506th needs no distortion of facts by "historians" as justification. His sacrifice and valor as well as the men of the 7th Regiment of the 3rd Division and all those who have served our Country and the cause of Freedom speak for themselves. History should be a reporting of facts. To do otherwise is to dishonor those who made history.

[Max (UK)]

Michael, great topic. Nice posting too, BK. Very interesting stuff.

Max (not a member of the "choir")

[Lt FJB]

Now there are a bunch of details I did not know. Good stuff.

Cheers!

Mark

[FEWIII]

lots of details here I didn't know! thanks for this interesting posting! really glad to have found this board, cheers

[Kiwiwriter]

The bottom line is that three divisions raced into Berchtesgaden and pretty much all got there first, dividing up the spoils not too neatly.

And a hearty welcome to the new troopers. Please use the "introduce yourself" forums. (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[j3rdinf]

Yes. it was the 7th Inf Reg. 3rd Inf Div that captured and cleared Berchtesgaden. I was
a member of the 3rd Bn 7th Reg. when we went in to Berchtesgaden at approx. 4 P.M.
on May 4, '45. First company in was Lt.'s Sherman Pratts L Co. of the 3rd Bn.
Along with this was Capt. (or then Lt.) Russ Cloer of the 7th.s I and R Platoon.
Granted, the 101 A.B. did come in much later and stayed as "occupation troops", while
within days, our 3rd Bn 7th Reg were told to leave and go to Salzberg Austria.
Joseph A. Fournier (Ex PFC S.N. 12206596)

[Kiwiwriter]

Yes. it was the 7th Inf Reg. 3rd Inf Div that captured and cleared Berchtesgaden.  I was
a member of the 3rd Bn 7th Reg. when we went in to Berchtesgaden at approx. 4 P.M.
on May 4, '45. First  company in was Lt.'s Sherman Pratts L Co. of the 3rd Bn.
Along with this was Capt. (or then Lt.) Russ Cloer of the 7th.s I and R Platoon.
Granted, the 101 A.B. did come in much later and stayed as "occupation troops", while
within days, our 3rd Bn 7th Reg were told to leave and go to Salzberg Austria. 
Joseph A. Fournier (Ex PFC  S.N. 12206596)

And welcome to the 506th, and thank you for your service to your Country with the 3rd Infantry Division.

Do introduce yourself in the "Introduce yourself" forum and then please share with us your memories of service with the "Rock of the Marne."

[fanoBoB]

"I'm sure there's more and I'm sorry I cannot properly attribute the second contributor. Perhaps some others can fill in some of that kind of information."

BK,
I posted this after we visited Berchtesgaden in June 2002 after reading the story from a book which I purchased while taking a tour of the Eagle's Nest. As you remember this was quite a controversial subject and I thought that by posting that story it would help to clear up some of the things being discussed.
I have a picture I took during that visit of an engraving on the wall of the tunnel complex around the Berghof (Hitlers mountain retreat not to be confused with the Eagle's Nest). This engraving in the tunnel complex was put there by the French 2nd armored division when they arrived. The engraving gives the idenity of the 2nd division and the date of 5-5-1945 which was a day after elements of the 3rd division got there. Wish I could post that picture here but I haven't figured out how to do that.
From reading what the author wrote in the book I referenced in the story you cited, members of the 3rd infantry division were the first to Berchtesgaden and to the Berghof and the 101st was the first to the Eagle's nest.
Doug's post above nails it pretty good in my opinion.
The tour of this mountain complex is most interesting and I highly recommend it to anyone who is traveling to Germany during the warm months.

Lane

[jimary]

The question of who arrived "first" at Berchtesgaden is very hazy. Ambrose is being pummeled for not "setting the record straight" when he wrote BOB. BOB was the view of the war through the eyes of the men of Easy Company, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne Division and what they experienced. BOB simply states that Easy Company entered Berchtesgaden on May 05, 1945 without opposition. No mention is made of the 3d ID because BOB wasn't about the 3d ID.
Read the following extracts of the combat chronicles for the 101st and 3d ID. The information is current as of October 1948, reproduced from The Army Almanac: A Book of Facts Concerning the Army of the United States, U.S. Government Printing Office, 1950, pp. 510-592.
1. The 101st reached Berchtesgaden by the end of the war and performed occupational duties until inactivation in Germany.
2. The 3d pushed on to take Augsburg and Munich, 27-30 April, and was in the vicinity of Salzburg when the war in Europe ended.
Now if one reads the Central of Military History (COMH) literature, specifically "Central Europe" (22 Mar-11 May 1945) something else appears. (Reference page 32 and the map on page 28-29).
"Also on 4 May, after a shift in inter-army boundaries which placed Salzburg in the Seventh Army sector, that city surrendered to elements of the XV Corps. The XV Corps (7th Army) also captured Berchtesgaden, the town that would have been Hitler's command post in the National Redoubt". (however no exact date provided). The 3d ID was part of XV Corps.
If you look at the map on page 28-29, the reader will see that the 101st Abn as part of XXI Corps (7th Army) and XV Corps (7th Army) were moving abreast of each other towards Austria. Berchtesgaden was situated on the corps boundary between XXI Corps and XV Corps. The 2d French Armored Division was also part of the XXI Corps.
Now the question - who got there "first"? The response is based on a FAQ on the COMH web page.
"Who was the first soldier to accomplish a given task, such as entering Berlin in World War II, first killed on D-Day, or who was the "wealthiest," "youngest," or "oldest" soldier in U.S. Army history". ?
"As a matter of policy, unless an official announcement of known facts is issued, the Center of Military History (COMH) refrains from sanctioning claims involving "firsts" or the "most" because they often are difficult to substantiate and frequently are contested by other claimants".
In conclusion, if you want to be "first" then convince the COMH first. LOL
PS: As for the 2d French Armored Division, YOYO.

This post has been edited by jimary: Feb 8 2004, 06:48 PM