4/7th Dragoon Guards Options

[ham and jam]

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4/7th Dragoon Guards. Motto/ Quis Separabit ( who shall seperate us)


These were formed by an amalgamation of 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards, and 6th Dragoon Guards (Princess Royal's).

The 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards started life right back in 1685 with the name Earl of Arran's Regiment of Cuirassiers. Cuirassiers were basically heavy horse cavalry formed from men-at-arms or gendarmerie forming the heavy cavalry of feudal armies. I first became aware of these horse soldiers through reading a bit about the Napoelonic wars.

In 1751 they were renamed 1st Regiment of Horse, and in 1788 gained the name
4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards.

They fought during the Peninsula wars of 1808-1814, Balaklava, Sevastopol (Crimean war) 1853-1856, and Tel-el-Kebir, Egypt 1882.

The regiment were not in action again until WW1 where they fought at Mons, Le Cateau, Retreat from Mons, Marne 1914, Aisne 1914, La Bassée 1914, Messines 1914, Armentières 1914, Ypres 1914 '15, St. Julien, Frezenberg, Bellewaarde, Somme 1916 '18, Flers-Courcelette, Arras 1917, Scarpe 1917, Cambrai 1917 '18, St. Quentin, Rosières, Amiens, Albert 1918, Hindenburg Line, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders 1914-18.

Both the 4th and the 5th Dragoon Guards saw action from the outset of the First World War. Indeed history allows C Squadron, the 4th Dragoon Guards the honour of the first action by the British Army in the War, with Corporal Thomas firing the first shot and Captain Hornby the first officer to draw blood with his sword. Only a few days later the Commanding Officer of the 5th Dragoon Guards, Lieutenant Colonel G K Ansell, was killed in action at Nery.

By October 1914 the Inniskillings (affectionately known as "The Skins") and the 7th had arrived in France from India. All four Regiments spent the greater part of the next four years acting in the dismounted role, but the last weeks of the War found both the 5th Dragoon Guards and the 7th Dragoon Guards in action again on horseback; the 5th capturing or killing over seven hundred German troops when they attacked a troop train at Harbonnieres, and the 7th claiming the last cavalry action of the War when they captured the town of Lessines on the 11th November 1918.



In 1922 they were amalgamated with the the 6th Dragoon Guards (Princess Royal's).

This regiment also had a great history, formed 1688 and originally called the Lord Cavendish's Regiment of Horse. Thye have battle honours from Blenheim, Ramillies, Oudenarde, Malplaquet, Dettingen, Warburg, South Africa 1846-7, Tel-el-Kebir, Egypt 1882, South Africa 1900-02
The Great War, La Bassée 1914, Givenchy 1914, Somme 1916 '18, Bazentin, Flers-Courcelette, Cambrai 1917 '18, St. Quentin, Avre, Lys, Hazebrouck, Amiens, Hindenburg Line, St. Quentin Canal, Beaurevoir, Pursuit to Mons, France and Flanders 1914-18.


The 4/7th Dragoon Guards were mechanized in 1938 and were put in the Royal Armoured Corps in 1939. Thier HQ is Catterick Garrison, North Yorkshire.

The badge is the Coronet of The Princess Royal on the Cross of St. George within a circlet inscribed 'Quis Separabit' and 'MCMXXII' all on the Star of the Order of St. Patrick.

During WW2 they gained battle honours at Dyle, Dunkirk 1940, Normandy Landing, Odon, Mont Pincon, Seine 1944, Nederrijn, Geilenkirchen, Roer, Rhineland, Cleve, Rhine, Bremen, North-West Europe 1940 '44-45.

The two regiments were the first armoured units to be deployed to France in support of the British Expeditionary Force, fighting side-by-side in the desperate but gallant withdrawal to Dunkirk. Both regiments spent the next four years training and re-equipping with heavier tanks in preparation for the Normandy landings, and in 1940 a cadre of men from both regiments was formed which was to be the nucleus of a newly raised cavalry regiment, the 22nd Dragoons (the sum of the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th). The 22nd Dragoons were disbanded after the War. On D-Day the 4/7th, as part of the Eighth Armoured Brigade, were the first tanks to land on Gold Beach in Normandy leading the advance on Caen; their tanks were also the first to cross the river Seine and they led the rescue column to Arnhem. The Regiment still wear the same identification flash on the Service Dress that was first worn by the 4/7th in 1939 prior to their deployment to France. The Skins for their part were in almost continuous action from after Normandy to the end of the War, taking part in the successful action to capture S-Hertogenbosch and the breakout from the Rhine bridgehead.


In 1992 The Royal Dragoon Guards formed on 1st August 1992 as a result of the amalgamation of the 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards and the 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards. As both these were in their turn the result of earlier amalgamations in the 1920s, The Royal Dragoon Guards now carries with it the traditions and history of four of the finest regiments in the British Cavalry; the 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, the 5th Dragoon Guards, the 7th Dragoon Guards and the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons. All four were raised between 1685 and 1689, during the protracted contest between James II and William of Orange for the English throne.



Andy

This post has been edited by ham and jam: May 29 2004, 02:54 AM

[ham and jam]

B and C squadrons of the 4/7th RDG landed 5 minutes early on D-day, H hour was at 7.20 am. the DD tanks of A squadron went with the Green howards through Crepon and then on to Creully where they liberated the town. There is a memorial to the RDG in the town which I have on film from my trip to Normandy.

4th/7th Royal RDG went on to fight at Cristot against 12ss PZ div, im sure Mat will confirm with me that the fighting around here was very bad. 2 soldiers from the regiment were shot dead after being captured at Cristot and another poor young lad who was a Lieutenant, was tortured and then killed by the SS.

The regiment were then at Verrieres and Lingevres (plenty about these battles in Bobfish's Brit 2nd army thread) The regiment came to halt with a thud at at Tilly Sur Seulles when they came up against the Panzer Lehr div (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Sgt W. Harris D.C. and his troop knocked out 5 Panther tanks with 5 shots at Tilly (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .



Andy

[roobarb]

Sgt W. Harris D.C. and his troop knocked out 5 Panther tanks with 5 shots at Tilly  (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) .

FIVE Panthers with FIVE shots (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Is this confirmed, it seems unbelievable!
I assume that the DG's had Shermans?
Good post as always Andy. I love delving back in time to find the origins of our great regiments (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ham and jam]

Yes Roo Shermans, Sgt W. Harris D.C.M. with his gunner Tpr I. D. Mackillop, are Mentioned in Dispatches. The info I have doesnt mention anything about what Sherman but I would of thought it must have been a Firefly, cos those Panthers wernt short on armour were they (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) .

The regiment took part in Operation Market Garden, they reached Driel just down the road from Arnhem but couldnt make it to the Paras.

The regiment escorted DUWks loaded with supplies to Driel, the supplies obviously for 1st para, but the Ducks couldnt cross the river because of German resistance.

The regiment went on to fight at Elst, Randwijk, Zetten, Island Nijmegen, Bemmel, Mook, on the 1st November they were in support of the 50 Division & 101 U.S. Airborne Division on the Island. Brunssum, Sittard, Gilgarth, Nederheide, . Hocheide, Rsichden and to Tripsrath.

Cheers mate

Andy

This post has been edited by ham and jam: Nov 3 2005, 11:06 AM

[BobFish]

4th Troop, A Squadron, 4th/7th Dragoon Guards in Lingeveres June 14th 1944

The troop consisted of 3 tanks, the lead tank commanded by Lt Alastair Morrison, and the others commanded by Sergeant Harris and Corporal Johnson. Harris was in the Firefly......a troop usually consisted of 4 tanks (presumably 4 troop had lost one just before the battle), and one of the four would be a Firefly.

4 Troop assisted the Durhams in capturing Lingeveres and they were consolidating when Sergeant Harris spotted a Panther moving in the distance which was promptly knocked out with the 17pdr fired by his gunner Trooper MacKillop.

A bit later, after two of the Durhams 6pdr anti-tank guns had been knocked out, Sergeant Harris, who was covering the Lingeveres - Tilly road to the East, spotted a Sherman driving up the road from Tilly fast towards him. Just before reaching the village the Sherman quickly drove off up a side road, revealing a Panther just behind it. However Harris and MacKillop were quick, and disabled the Panther with one shot, knocking off a track and causing it swerve into a hedge. The Panther was brewed up a bit later by a PIAT team commanded by the Durhams CO Major John Mogg, who was actually the bloke who pulled the trigger on the PIAT!!! Talk about leading from the front.

Shortly after that, tanks were heard to the south, and Corporal Johnson's tank went forward to investigate. However it was hit just infront of Lingeveres church and disabled without brewing. Johnson climbed out suffering from wounds from which he would die the following day. The radio-operator, L/Cpl Draper jumped out of the Sherman and ran for cover, but realised that the driver, Trooper Dagley was trapped inside (in the Sherman, if the turret was turned in a particular direction, the driver's hatch would be blocked!!!), so he ran back (in full view of the enemy) and helped him out by jumping back in the tank, traversing the turret, then climbing round and pulling him out of the hatch. But sadly Dagley died a few minutes later.

The rest of the afternoon, the enemy mounted several attempts to recapture the village, but all were beaten off. But tanks were running short of ammunition, and had to go to the rear to resupply. Harris went first, and was back in Lingeveres just in time for the final actions of the day.

4 Panthers were moving East towards Lingeveres. The rearmost tank was knocked out by Captain Stirling, A Squadron's second in command, who was to the north-west of the town covering the flanks. The other three, seeing this, sped right towards the town. Harris was by now north-west of the church, in a perfect position to take on this new attack and promptly knocked out the leading Panther, and then the Panther 50 yards behind it. The last Panther carried on past the wrecks right into Lingeveres town centre, where it too was disabled by Harris and MacKillop.

This final action marked the end of the days fighting, and the Germans made no further serious attempts to re-take Lingeveres. Harris was awarded a DCM and MacKillop got a Mention in Despatches for destroying 5 Panthers with as many shots.

The final Panther to be disabled, infront of the church (off picture to the right) in the town centre. The shot that disabled it also came from the right.
(IMG:http://www.glcoupar.freeserve.co.uk/battleoflingevres1944/images/lingevres1.jpg)

The two Panthers knocked out by Harris, heading into the town in the final encounter. This picture is looking East. Harris's Firefly was off the the left. The final Panther, pictured above, carried on into the square infront of the church (you can just see it sticking around the edge of one of the buildings). Picture gives a good idea of how small Lingeveres is. It's basically just a town square with a church and some buildings around it, but was situated on the Tilly road and so needed to be secured to stop German movement east-west.
(IMG:http://www.glcoupar.freeserve.co.uk/battleoflingevres1944/images/lingevres2.jpg)

Lingeveres square. The final Panther (the one in the first picture) is visible in the foreground on the left. Behind the war memorial (still standing today, complete with bullet holes and shrapnel damage - something for those visiting Normandy to go see perhaps) can be seen Corporal Johnson's disabled Sherman.
(IMG:http://www.glcoupar.freeserve.co.uk/battleoflingevres1944/images/panth.1.jpg)

This post has been edited by BobFish: May 31 2004, 09:01 AM

[ham and jam]

Great post Mat, I just knew that the tank had to be a firefly.

Half the tanks in Panzer Lehr were 45 ton Mark V Panthers, most of the others were the reliable Mark IV which was a 25 ton tank.

Montgomery appreciated the weakness in his tank divs (little late Id say) and pressed on with turning a number of the basic Shermans into firefly's.

For once the US were impressed with this British invention, and when Bradley heard about these 17 pounder guns being fitted to Shermans, he asked Monty if the US could have some. But because there was a shortage of these fireflys in the British armoured divs anyway, Monty said he was affraid he couldnt oblige. As you said Mat there was only one firefly per tank troop.

The fireflies had only a crew of 4 men as the 17 pounder took up so much room in the tank there just wasnt room. Plus the huge 17 pounder shells had to be stored where the 5th man sat.

Andy

This post has been edited by ham and jam: Nov 3 2005, 11:07 AM

[BobFish]

These fireflies had only a crew of 4 men as the 17 pounder took up so much room in the tank there just wasnt room. plus the huge 17 pounder shells had to be stored where the 5th man sat.

Ooo....interesting. One of those details that will be important to know at some point, and I didn't know that. Schweet.

Also, seems the Germans got onto the Firefly pretty sharpish, as it was noticeable by it's longer barrel, so it would frequently became the first tank to be knocked out when engaged by the enemy.

Cristot, on June 11th. B Squadron 4/7 DG supported the 6th Green Howards attacking Cristot and lost 7 tanks, the Squadron second in command, and, as you said Andy, a young Lieutenant who was captured and tortured by 12 SS. Apparently he was already badly wounded when captured, but was then tied to a broken tree limb and everytime British artillery fired on their positions, he was dragged into the open. It took 3hrs before he died (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Cristot, Lingeveres, McIntee is staying within 5 minutes drive of these places next week!!!!! *jealous* (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by BobFish: May 31 2004, 11:11 AM

[ham and jam]

It was most certainly members of SS Major Gerhard Bremer's 12th SS Panzer Reconnaissance Regiment who were the ones responsible for the murders of the British troops and the wounded Lt.

Another thing I read about the fireflies was that they were difficult to drive owing to the huge gun that was longer than the front of the tank. Especially in the normandy countryside. Ken Tout says in his book that you were worried incase you were somewhere where you couldnt traverse the gun incase of trees or buildings especially when a Tiger came into view.


(IMG:http://www.creullyclub.freeuk.com/images/memorial.jpg)
Memorial for the 4/7th RDG at Creully

The Panzer Lehr division was located well to the South, in the area Illiers and Nogent-le-Rotrou between Chartres and Le Mans. On the 6th June they were ordered to take up positions to the left of 12th SS arriving in the area of Tilly-sur-Seulles on 9th June. During the 90 mile drive they lost 130 trucks, five tanks and 84 self-propelled guns due to attacks by the allied air force.


4th troop on D-day RDG

The Troop's objective on D-Day was an unidentified structure on the King Green Sector of Gold Beach. The Troop's amphibious DD tanks waded in at H hour minus 5 minutes - 07.20 from a LCT - a tank landing craft. The original intention had been for the tanks to swim in but the sea was too rough. The structure was found to be a block house with the gun traversing rear and firing enfilade to both sides along the beach. The Troop Leader's tank with the Troop Sergeant attacked the blockhouse form the left and the Troop Corporal's tank from the right. However the latter sank in a large shell crater below the surface. Attempts to pull it out failed and the other two tanks took the track immediately behind the block house inland after the crew of the block house surrendered.
The two surviving tanks of the Troop crossed the River Seulles at Villers-le-Sec. So ended D-Day

Cristot 11th June

A gap had been detected in the German line between Points 102 and 103 - Cristot - and attack began with 'B' Squadron and the 6th Battalion Green Howards infantry. The infantry became separated from the tanks resulting in the 12th SS in a defensive position picking off the the tanks and infantry. The operation became a complete failure. 4th Troop suffered three of the Troop wounded including the Troop Leader Lt T.E Apps

Andy

This post has been edited by ham and jam: May 31 2004, 11:53 AM

[roobarb]

Those are great pics Bob. Care to reveal the source (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
You read so much about Tigers taking out Shermans and Cromwells by the score, thats its refreshing to see that the germans didnt have it all their own way (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
In fact taking the hardware out of the equation the allied tankers were just as good as their opposite numbers (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
Although the Germans to some extent pioneered the art of tank warfare (Guderian, Rommel etc), causing the allies to play catch up. They had come on leaps and bounds. Lets not forget who pioneered the tank initially at Cambrai, it should really have been the Brits or the French leading the way!
Dave

[BobFish]

Care to reveal the source

Certainly...... I got the pics from:http://www.glcoupar.freeserve.co.uk/battleoflingevres1944/

It's got a bit on the battle, but isn't finished yet. However the personal accounts, and photos (particularly the modern day pics) are brilliant. Also the unit war-diaries are very good, the XXX Corps diary has a report of Sergeant Harris's action, written in a cold, clinical rear-echelon way.

thats its refreshing to see that the germans didnt have it all their own way

Tell me about it....just as amazing is when the 5th DCLI were over-run by something like 5 Panthers in the village of Cheux, during Operation Epsom, and knocked 5 of them out. Save that story for the 2nd Army thread methinks, rather than hijack this one.

This post has been edited by BobFish: May 31 2004, 04:09 PM

[ham and jam]

bump

[BobFish]

Aha! The perfect place for some pictures of Lingevres (cheers Andy).....

Took these on my trip a few months ago, whenever it was. Some of the pictures are a bit.....angled. I keep wondering if I was drunk when I was taking them, but it was during one of my periods of forced sobriety so it can't be that. Anyhow.

I'll only post a few relevant ones here, as most of my other Lingevres pics are related to the DLI attack (Bn HQ and things like that).

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Compare this picture to the first photo I posted a few posts up....if you look at the 1944 picture, the metal railing on the left surrounds the War Memorial. That railing has gone (crushed by a Sherman perhaps) but the Memorial remains - note the pock-marks on it. The church is behind me and to my right.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8489/ling...kingwest1ww.jpg

The road running away from the camera is the West road, to La Belle Epine - later three Panthers advanced down this main road into Lingevres. The DLI line of advance emerged onto the main road from that little side road on the right, which heads North. It was a short distance down this side-road that Sgt Harris' tank was positioned. Two Panthers (seen in one of the other 1944 pics).

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Compare this picture to the second of the 1944 pics. This is on the La Belle Epine road, looking East into Lingevres. Three Panthers advanced down this road.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/373/lin...tintotown7v.jpg

Now, what you don't see properly in the last photo is the large gap in the hedge just to the left of the big concrete telegraph pole - because I was stood at an awkward angle.

Here it is...the big gap in the hedge:
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2469/ling...nthergap0rc.jpg

I'd read about this in a tour-guide beforehand. This gap is exactly where one of the Panthers came to rest. Coincidence? Or is there still a lot of oil residue in the ground beneath? Interesting stuff.

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I screwed this photo up. Not only is it at an angle, it's also slightly offplaced. I'm no David Bailey. But anyway, you can probably compare it to the last photo reproduced above. Also, it shows where Corporal Johnson's Sherman was brewed up - between the War-Memorial and the house on the right side of the picture - it was pointing down the south road that's off to the right. The last Panther came to rest right infront of where I'm standing - having been hit from off to the left, and back a bit down the sideroad I've mentioned.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5995/ling...memorial2sa.jpg

There's a plaque to 50th Division on the church. Another memorial to 4th/7th DG is at Verrieres I believe - though I didn't actually see it when I was around there.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It's also possible to search out the rough location where Sgt Harris' Firefly was parked. I saw a battlefield tour giving exact directions (Villers Bocage - one of the Battlezone Normandy books) so you can stand on the exact spot. But, I didn't have that book (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) I tried to do my best, but I won't print the results here as I don't think they're accurate. And besides, one of the pictures is basically a picture of a hedge, obscured by another hedge.

I think this is the only website in the world where I can post a picture of a hedge. With a gap in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

This post has been edited by BobFish: Nov 2 2005, 12:09 PM

[ham and jam]

Great stuff Mat, sorry its taken so long to reply. This is why I need to go to Normandy "out of season" as it were, when theres no events parades and services to distract me. Then I can visit places such as above and others that I have not yet. Cheers for psoting them.

Andy

[MacFrank]

i know a veteran of B Squadron - Cecil Newton.

Frank

[Lesley]

FIVE Panthers with FIVE shots (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Is this confirmed, it seems unbelievable!
I assume that the DG's had Shermans?
Good post as always Andy. I love delving back in time to find the origins of our great regiments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Absolutely true! My father, Trooper Richard Charles Eagles (Dick), was the loader/operator of Harris's tank. My father passed away 2 months ago and I found these pictures among his memorabilia:

(IMG:http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy237/lesleyit/dread120645.jpg)

(IMG:http://i795.photobucket.com/albums/yy237/lesleyit/fireflycrew_120645x.jpg)

This is an article from the local paper

http://www.thepress.co.uk/search/4460839.T...Charles_Eagles/


This post has been edited by Lesley: Aug 25 2009, 02:38 AM