"der Untergang" / The Downfall, German Hitler-movie released Options

[sergio.barcellos]

It's been six decades since the end of the Second World War and only now is the German cinema exploring Adolf Hitler.

Hi all,

I saw The Downfall last week (in Rio de Janeiro) and, besides being a great work itself, I think it´s a serious candidate to be the first definitive film about Hitler, in terms of what he was like as a person, wich, I suppose, is the last angle still not fully explored of the hated man.

Still to be discussed (in film) is how and why german people followed him, believing in his cause blindly and why it took so long until they realized the madman he really was.

The account of the last days of Berlin as the Third Reich´s capital, Hitler and all the others who gravitated around him, through the eyes of Traudl Junge, is very accurate and consistent with Berlin 1945, book written by english historian Antony Beevor (wich I strongely recommend).

Sérgio

This post has been edited by sergio.barcellos: May 17 2005, 06:33 AM

[Kiwiwriter]

Mohnke's odd behavior (being chivalrous to and concerned with the fate of Berliners yet casually massacring Canadian POWs) is actually not surprising to me. The SS were trained about having the "strongest ties of kinship" with each other and the Deutsches Volk, and having contempt for their enemies. Thus, an SS general would be gravely concerned with the fate of German civilians but not give a flying frazzoo about captured Canadians. It's actually very depressing credo, because it makes a hypocrisy over the concepts of chivalry and humanity -- lives are only of value if they are from "unser volk." It's tough to do a movie about the last days of Hitler -- most of the characters are grotesques, cutthroats, poltroons, and there is no one for the audience to relate with or connect to -- even an "anti-hero." I'm reminded of George Peppard in "The Blue Max." He was a dislikeable fellow, but the audience was supposed to root for him.

[Le Paradis]

In Oz we have a great little show called 'At the Movies' on the public broadcaster ABC.

The two hosts are famous for their onscreen disagreements about film, but on this case, high praise for the filmmakers and actors and agreement on its merits. (All the scores are out of five.)

the following review and viewer comments are from the website at:
At The Movies - Downfall review

Downfall
Review by Margaret Pomeranz

Downfall depicts Hitler’s last days in Berlin from the perspective of his personal secretary Traudl Junge - with the Russian army advancing on Berlin and defeat inevitable, this is as close to being in the bunker as one can get.

One of the nominees for a Foreign Language Oscar this year was the German film ‘Downfall’, Oliver Hirschbiegel’s account of the last days of Hitler in his bunker in Berlin.

Based on Joachim Fest’s meticulously researched book and on the memoirs of Hitler’s secretary Traudl Junge it depicts the claustrophobic atmosphere in the bunker as well as the chaos reigning outside on the streets as Russian troops close in on the city.

In the bunker Eva Braun (Juliane Koehler) is preparing for the Fuhrer’s birthday party while he is berating his generals for failing to stop the Russian advance

The Goebbels family gathers in the bunker to show their unswerving loyalty to the end, while outside an army doctor desperately tries to access supplies to treat the wounded.

A mood of finality permeates the bunker, the preparations for the end are a solemn affair.

Depicting Hitler in a German film is a sensitive issue and it’s to the credit of director Hirschbiegel and the film’s screenwriter and producer Bernd Eichinger that you do get a window into that world of Hitler and his cohorts that somehow seems terribly real.

There are moments of banality as the Goebbels children sing folk songs to the Fuhrer, moments of irrational rage as Hitler turns on his generals, moments of absolute horror as the Goebbels carry out their own final solution.

But what is amazing is the ordinariness of Hitler, played so effectively by the Swiss actor Bruno Ganz, and it’s the scariest aspect of the film.

For this man as depicted to have held such sway in the history of a nation and more immediately in the lives of the people who surrounded him is terrifying indeed.

This is a fantastic production and a really powerful film.

Further comments
MARGARET: David?

DAVID: Yes. It is. You're right about the Hitler character because as we see him in this film, I mean, he's clearly deranged, but he's such a mediocre little man. And yet, all these people are held in sway by him, especially his secretary. It's so interesting we see so much of the film from her point of view.

MARGARET: Yes. But I mean even that contempt he has for the people he's led. You know, he doesn't care. There's no thought of surrendering. He doesn't care about people dying on the streets. He's hanging on as long as he can.

DAVID: I mean, the film has been much criticised for the way it presents some of the characters in the film, including Traudl who, there was a documentary about her and she only died quite recently and you see the real Troudl at the end of the film and some of the other characters too. And maybe her account is a bit self-serving but it's fascinating just to see the dynamics in that bunker in those last days. I think it's an extraordinary film.

MARGARET: I do too. I'm giving it 4.5 stars.

DAVID: Yes, me too. 4.5.


Your review

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Name Geejay Schneeweiss

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 09:55:02 15 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score two

Remarks Yes, it is a powerful film, but it is a selective view of the period of the rise of Nazism, WW2, the Holocaust and of Hitler and his inner circle. The film provides no context of this horrendous period in human history. It is also an exceedingly long film, albeit with excellent acting



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Name Rebecca

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 11:32:34 15 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks The selective view is the whole point of the film - there are so many films and books about the holocaust, without this uniqueness it would be just another WW2 movie. Seeing things from an entirely different perspective was thought-proving and interesting. Hitler's humaness is portrayed in this film - I have not experienced that before, and it made the whole experience seem more real



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Name Renata Musolino

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 10:22:42 18 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks I was both fascinated and horrified watching Hitler - how very ordinary he was at times - and how deranged. The scene where he is eating his (maybe) last meal is an example: his secretary being absolutely enthralled watching him. He finishes, compliments the cook and then shuffles off. At the same time Berlin and its civilians are being blown to smithereens... We all know what happened to the Jewish people - it also happened to the gypsies and homosexuals. But this film also showed the effect of Hitler's crazed philosophy did to the German people. I think as many people as possible should see this film



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Name Andrew

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 17:51:10 18 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four-and-a-half

Remarks An incredibly powerful film, with the ultimate question left at the end of the film is how were the German people held in such a thrall but such a crazed, mediocre, self-centred and delusional man as Hitler. The Fuhrersbunker coterie are portaryed as accurately as can be rendered in the film, though I do tend to agree with Wim Wenders point about the depiction of Hitler's death. And ignore any criticisms of fascism idolized or SS bravery and loyalty honored in the film. It leaves very bitter ashes in anyone's mouth. If you want more background on how good the film is historically read 'The Berlin Bunker' by James O'Donnell



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Name Hewitt

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 19:59:34 18 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks Incredible. Finally we see a movie from a different perceptive that shows partly the horrid pain and suffering that the German people also suffered under a dictator. This is a brillant antiwar film and showed a side that is not often portraited



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Name alex fassbender

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 14:13:41 19 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score five

Remarks a brilliant translation of fest's work. its been a long time coming and i'd urge anyone with any interest on this period of history to read some of his work. he sugarcoats nothing but niether does he exagerate or distort!



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Name Gustav Norr

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 21:37:33 19 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score five

Remarks A brilliant, utterly moving film - Hitler's insanity is portrayed honestly - that is not in caricature form. The insanity of those last days is accurately portrayed and stays in context, chilling are the wider implications of all those die-hard Hitler loyalists who take their own lives, harder to digest is the fact that most still thought they were right.

Notable is also the fact that the Soviets/Russians are not portrayed during their brief appearance as "dimwitted vodka-swilling Ivans" (a la "Enemy at the Gates")



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Name Szilard Barna

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 13:30:29 20 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score five

Remarks Although I give this film a top rating for artistic and historical merits, my only criticism is directed to film makers on WW2 films. We have so much information already on the sufferings of the Jewish people, Germans, and other Europen nations effected greatly by the atrocities created by WW2, but when are film makers going to concentrate on the root of the cause of this world wide catastrophy, like what started the First WW1 and how this triggered of WW2. Are we ever goint to learn what makes wars or are we going to continue making wars like that of the IRAQ war already witnessed? What right for example had the west in carving up Hungary by creating TRIANON after WW1 when in fact Hungary never started the WW1, but was dragged into it by the Habsburgs?
The missing link bet



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Name Brian Miller

Email

PostCode South Australia

Visit Time 10:13:39 21 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks
"Traudl Junge appears in the film's opening scene in 1942 as a fresh-faced and apolitical 22-year-old who is engaged by Hitler because she comes from his beloved Munich. The audience never learns that her background was saturated in Nazism..."

The massaging of history. The film Downfall relies on memoirs written by Hitler's allies to distance themselves from Nazism

The film Downfall has received terrific reviews in this country and has already been seen by four and a half million Germans. It has clearly struck a chord with the popular mood in Germany and feelings about the Nazi past. The brilliant portrayal of Hitler by Bruno Ganz exposes him as a repellent human being devoid of concern about the misery into which he led his people. The film thus panders to the tendency of Germans to see themselves as victims of



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Name Yvette

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 00:16:36 24 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score one-and-a-half

Remarks This is a well made film but it left me empty. I could not sympathise with the characters in the manner the film encouraged. The heroic doctor, naive young secretary... I learnt nothing about them, though the musical score and their loyal yet fatal position tried to elicit sympathy from me. Their look of horror as they passed wounded German soldiers at the end of the film was absurd. Am I to believe that these people, who not only passed by but partook in the torture and murder of millions, were suddenly able to feel compassion for these ‘victims’? And these victims were generously portrayed without their ideology, their fervent and racist beliefs. This film casts the Germans as victims, which may to some extent be true, and refuses to deal with their guilt and responsibi



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Name Green

Email

PostCode Western Australia

Visit Time 00:54:58 28 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score five

Remarks Amazing, multifaceted film which shows Hitler as just a man. Far more chilling than the monster we are used to imagining. This film doesn't only deal with the situation as it was in Germany, but the failings of people that made the atrocities directed by Hitler possible. I feel a film like this can teach a greater lesson in how to not repeat history than the emotional distancing so often practised when considering the German role in the holocaust.
Excellent acting and all ends of the film were neatly wrapped. The length wasn't a problem as the film was so absorbing, and it is a credit to the film-makers that they did not rush the story to a premature end for the sake of a shorter flim. Superb acting, with characters like Goebbels' wife at once abhorrent and sympathetic. Anth



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Name Jeff Probst

Email

PostCode Western Australia

Visit Time 11:04:14 28 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks An amazing and terrible anti-war film; the effect of war on children is hammered home. The bunker is totally claustrophobic and you can feel the (very young) Russian army pressing in. While the film is somewhat sympathetic (since you are in the bunker too), it doesn't portray the Nazis as great conversationalists or heroes. A couple of things to watch out for:

- Eva Braun is strangely over-excited every time she lights up.

- Don't see it late at night, you won't be able to sleep.




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Name Dean

Email

PostCode Queensland

Visit Time 20:00:30 28 Apr, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four-and-a-half

Remarks An absorbing film showing what can happen when people are willing to sacrifice themselves and others for the sake of an ideal and for a leader. And what a mediocre, tunnel-visioned man they chose to follow. The scenes of wounded people should be seen by all those who think that war is a justifiable way to solve international problems



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Name Michael Lobanov

Email

PostCode South Australia

Visit Time 00:56:00 03 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks This film achieves an impressive level of objectivity and balance, considering the controversial subject. 60 years have passed since these events and still it is hard, especially for the German people, to contemplate what was in the hearts of those responsible for humanity's greatest catastrophe. Unfortunately, this director doesn't let us get close enough to sympathise for these people and one can hardly blame him for not wanting to start bushfires. However characters are left somewhat under-developed or two-dimensional. He is less judicious with blood-and-gore however, but this is just par for the course in a contemporary film.
As a portrayal of important historical events, it provides one's imagination with a convincing look-and-feel and somehow even the sm



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Name Adam Paynter

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PostCode NSW

Visit Time 13:40:31 03 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score five

Remarks I was completely blown away by its sheer power & ferocity. Finally we have a movie from the other-point-of-view in that very grim piece of history that is WW2. The crushed false-hopes of the German people, the fanatical loyalty to this evil little man (and yes, that is all he was, just a man) it all begs the question, "How?”.
How did a nation become so enamoured with such a vile and uncompassionate person? If you go and read any history book on Hitler’s rise to power, you'll know the answer: lies. He was the master of "gangster politics", lying to the people at every step to get what he wanted. And as a result of the people not questioning his lies, 50 million people lost their lives for unthinkable reasons. This leads me to another more contemporary questi



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Name peter

Email

PostCode Tasmania

Visit Time 22:16:42 03 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score two-and-a-half

Remarks it seems foolish to allocate a star rating as if the film is one - dimensional. I'd give this film 5 stars for acting and production, one star for the fact that the content is so repellent ie it feeds those who may find child abuse attractive, those who may be despairing and suicidal, those who may be excited by seeing others commit suicide by gunshot. Those who think war is justified ( after all , without the war, Hitler would not have had a stage ) Who was the intended audience? Those who can remember back 60 years? Do they need to be reminded? Those who will witness for the first time the horrors of that period? Did they have to learn? The neo-nazis? The anti-nazis? Everyone who sees it will confirm their own prejudices. When I think of the resources tha



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Name Schooler

Email

PostCode Not Australian

Visit Time 17:24:35 04 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four-and-a-half

Remarks A remarkable portrayal of "true believers". But how does one become a "true believer"? Socio-economic conditions must be a significant factor to create a mass following of "true believers". But is there a particular psychological profile of an individual that applies? Or are most of us susceptible given the right conditions? This is the question that intrigues me. I know this subject has received plenty of attention as it applies to the Germans and WWII. Who are the best writers who have treated this subject? or the names of their essays or books? I would like know. Thanks



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Name james

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 18:31:15 05 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four-and-a-half

Remarks This must be the most absorbing film I have seen in a very long time. It shows that madness dose not know when the end has passed. It slso showsthe futility of war. The acting by all parties was first class with an outstanding performance by Bruno Ganz who able to show that Hitler was in fact a nothing person who all mindlessly followed



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Name Patricia

Email

PostCode NSW

Visit Time 08:34:00 08 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four-and-a-half

Remarks It was a very powerful movie. At first I thought this was an attempt to humanise Hitler, but then they showed him as the dangerous, deluded, pathetic man that he was, as well as his followers who had unflinching loyalty to him right to the end.
The movie had a very strong sense of reality about it. I recommend it



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Name John N.

Email

PostCode Victoria

Visit Time 23:35:39 09 May, 2005 EST

Title Downfall

Score four

Remarks Stunningly absorbing for a film that runs for two and a half hours. The story is quite familiar even for those remotely aware of the history. The cast is simply incredible particularly Bruno Ganz. Reminds us very chillingly of the madness of war. I was quite stunned as the end credits rolled

[galesport]

Haven't had the opportunity to see this film yet, however I will when given the chance. I believe it necessary so that when another similiarly evil person is a trying to make their mark. As far as Hitler's health, their was a History Channel special about Hitler's doctor and the drug cocktails he gave him, which he called "vitamultin", don't know about the spelling. But the mixture included several potent, yet toxic to the human system. Additionally, Hitler exhibited all the signs of Parkinson's disease. This was also pointed out in a History Channel program, with German film showing his left hand twitching as though he were rolling coins in his hand. Also he had a habit of holding his left hand with the right hand. He also shook hands with the left hand. Did the movie have any of these visible signs of Hitler's failing health portrayed ?

Geoff

[sergio.barcellos]

Geoff,

Yeah, it shows the signs of Hitler´s disease, specially his left hand twitching, wich he keeps behind his back most fo the time. Maybe his bouts of rage and deranged behaviour were another sign of it as well.

Sérgio

[Dogdaddy]

Wasn't there some residual damage to his arm also from that bomb blast (assasination attempt) ? I saw the program about the "Vitamultin" injections too. Whatever it was, he appeared to be dependent on it , just to get out of bed in the morning. Probably some type of amphetamine, which would definately contribute to the paranoia.

Jim

[neilg]

Here is someInfo about the drugs administered by Morell. (Search the docu for Vitamultin)

Neil.

[Bart]

I haven't (yet), but I will soon. Probably next week.

"Probably next week"... I wrote that almost a year ago. (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I am obviously not a good planner, because it's only last week that I saw the Downfall for the first time.

I had read the book first. And I must say... seeing the movie wasn't a disappointment. It all seems very realistic (even the bunker-survivors said so), the atmosphere makes you feel uneasy and it was quite an experience to hear a Hitler talking (well, mostly shouting) in his original German/Austrian accent instead of English.

What struck me most were the huge contrasts... some nazi's were partying like there was no tomorrow (they guessed right) while just a few meters further young children were fighting for their lives. Hell on earth. For weeks in a row.

What also surprised me was that especially the women seemed so extremely loyal to Hitler. Mrs. Goebbels and Eva Braun were his biggest fans probably, but some of his secretaries, the female cook, an anonymous nurse, and that female pilote who came to rescue him were almost begging to die together with him as well.

It's not a 'feel good' movie of course. But it's interesting and certainly worth watching. And I just can't imagine that anyone feels sorry for Hitler after seeing this movie.

[Antoninus Luc...]

The Downfall is a great movie. It should be shown in schools.
What amazed me is that right until the very end, Hitler was able to give orders, however ridiculous, like moving armies that didn't exist anymore and that not a single one of the numerous officers around him had the guts to tell him: "OK, this is it, we're beaten. Let's stop the slaughter, you don't command any armies anymore because we have no army left".

As for the critics, all the arguments I'v read so far supporting the "sympathetic" theory do not fly, IMHO.

Mohnke's odd behavior (being chivalrous to and concerned with the fate of Berliners yet casually massacring Canadian POWs) is actually not surprising to me. The SS were trained about having the "strongest ties of kinship" with each other and the Deutsches Volk, and having contempt for their enemies. Thus, an SS general would be gravely concerned with the fate of German civilians but not give a flying frazzoo about captured Canadians.

...Exactly!!

As for Hitler being "insane" and "inhuman" well. First let's deal with the "insane" part.
No doubt that he was a politician --unfortunately a very clever one-- and politicians are generally of the "narcissic pervert" type.
Don't forget also that he had been through WW One and was gassed... So I suspect also a bad case of PTSD. He also certainly had sado-masochistic tendencies.
But mainly he was a by-product of that period of history, when anti-semitism was something noty only acceptable but required in certain circles and when democracy was questioned not only by the fascists but by almost everyone, including the left wing "intellectuals" (some intellect... . (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) )

Now the "Hitler being portayed as human" criticism: Well, Adolf Hitler was born of a man and a woman, just like you and I.
Some people wish they weren't of the same species as him --I do-- but unfortunately, he was from the species "homo sapiens sapiens". Nothing can be done about that.

It always struck me as odd and quite hypocritical to qualify as "inhuman" the horrors committed specifically by the species "homo sapiens sapiens".
Extermination camps were "inhuman"?
I've never heard of elephants doing that, or tigers..
Only humans.
Actually, Demon, my Flanders Bouvier told me once he resented that.

However hard you try you'll never be able to kick Adolf Hitler out of the human race. He was one of us.
And that is what's scary. And that is why we must remain careful.

This post has been edited by Antoninus Lucretius: Aug 24 2005, 10:47 AM

[homefront41]

Bart, I still haven't seen it either. I probably will not, unless it plays on free TV. After having read a dozen tomes, most particularly, The Bunker, I know all I need or want to know about the subject.

But I sincerely hope that people under 40 flock to see it. If the only way some people get their history is through films, then this is required viewing for them.

[ianhay_7]

Bart, I still haven't seen it either.  I probably will not, unless it plays on free TV.  After having read a dozen tomes, most particularly, The Bunker, I know all I need or want to know about the subject.

But I sincerely hope that people under 40 flock to see it.  If the only way some people get their history is through films, then this is required viewing for them.

I seen the film when it first came out. I thought it portrayed Hitler as a pathetic beaten maniac which he was - in fact in almost every scene he was in, it was laugh out loud stuff with his belief he could still turn events in his favour and appointing new staff and sacking people. Meanwhile everyone else around him were humouring him but when out of sight they were discussing the best ways of killing themselves. As for portraying him in a good light I say no - but probably an accurate portrayal of what actually happened.

I think it is worth a look.

Ian

[Bart]

Bart, I still haven't seen it either.  I probably will not (...)
But I sincerely hope that people under 40 flock to see it. 

What are you saying here, BK? That you're over 40? (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) I don't believe one word of it.

[Dogdaddy]

Bart, I still haven't seen it either.  I probably will not, unless it plays on free TV.  After having read a dozen tomes, most particularly, The Bunker, I know all I need or want to know about the subject.

But I sincerely hope that people under 40 flock to see it.  If the only way some people get their history is through films, then this is required viewing for them.

BK
I hope you will change your mind, even after reading The Bunker a dozen times. This film is well woth seeing..if it's the only film you see all year.
Jim

[Yseult]

It always struck me as odd and quite hypocritical to qualify as "inhuman" the horrors committed specifically by the species "homo sapiens sapiens".
Extermination camps were "inhuman"?
I've never heard of elephants doing that, or tigers..
Only humans.

Nicely put, AL. Your post got me thinking on our use of the word 'inhuman'... but I don't think my considerations fit either this topic or the theme of these boards.
That's why I put them into my blog, that way we could have a nice discussion about it over there, without annoying anybody.
If you cannot access this link to the board blogs, but you'd be interested by this topic, you can also go here: Philosopher's Attic

Greetings,
Y.-

[Kiwiwriter]

It always struck me as odd and quite hypocritical to qualify as "inhuman" the horrors committed specifically by the species "homo sapiens sapiens".
Extermination camps were "inhuman"?
I've never heard of elephants doing that, or tigers..
Only humans.
Actually, Demon, my Flanders Bouvier told me once he resented that.

However hard you try you'll never be able to kick Adolf Hitler out of the human race. He was one of us.
And that is what's scary. And that is why we must remain careful.

Truer words were never spoke.

It's why I've often felt that the central thread of humanity is our sadism. We are the only species that deliberately inflicts pain on other members of the species for fun. Whether it's the Three Stooges pulverizing each other or a mass suicide in Guyana, we snicker and laugh at pain. I don't know why. (IMG:http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)