Forgive me if I am bringing up something that's a;ready been discussed, but I tried using the search engine on this and found nothing. On the other hand, I try using the search engine frequently and have never found anything. I keep getting this message that says "not found". I have decided the thing doesn't like me.

Has anyone see the mini-series "Rome", written pimarily by Bruno Heller? It aired last year on HBO, 12 episodes that were supposed to continue this year, although I've not seen anything yet.

It is supposed to be both a historical account of the period between Julius Caesar's defiance of the Roman Senate and Pompey Maximus, through to the accession of Octavian as Emperoro Octavius Augustus; and a BoB-like concentration on a few main characters, from common soldiers to the nobility of Rome.

Just curious as to whether anyone's seen this besides me. Antoninus Lucretius, in particular: if you have, what do you think of the accuracy? (Not the historical facts, which are often telescoped, but the uniforms, food, mannerisms, and so on?)

FJB

FJB, yep, I saw last season's episodes. I can't speak to the history. And I have mixed feelings about the production. But the production values are first rate.

BTW, there was some discussion of it in the Thread That Dare Not Speak Its Name because Rick Warren (Harry Welsh) has a decidedly unsympathetic role.

Doh! I don't know how I missed that. Quintus Pompey, of course. And he IS right nasty in that role.

FJB

Ave,

If it's the same one currently being shown in the UK then I recommend it. I was surprised that the episode re Nero did not include the murdering of the christians. It' s a very good series IMO.

Ah.. Rome..
There was a hell of a lot of bad, but also some good. At least more good than in the previous sword and sandals movies and that includes Gladiator.
-The military aspects: the fighting methods of the legions are more or less accurate as far as we know. However, I never heard or read anything about the whistle used by the centurion.
At that time the scutum shield was not squared but oval. The helmets they wear are not the right type for the period. I still wonder why they still stick to an imaginary helmet nicknamed "the Hollywood type" by roman buffs like me. The more surprising since the real helmets (mostly Montefortino type) worn by the roman soldiers at that time have been dug up in great numbers. The finds in France allow researchers to follow Casars's footsteps in his conquest of Gaul.
The muscle cuirasses of the officers were NOT made of leather but of silvered iron or bronze. Very, very shiny and flashy piece of equipment.
A good point for the mail coats. They look more or less accurate.
I don't know who decided to dress all those legionaries with these khaky colored rags with an eagle printed on the chest. It's ridiculous. They wore tunics, usually white or off white, just like everybody else. For battle they may have worn red tunics.
Among the military standards shown, "dracos" are featured. It's a metal dragon head tied to a multicolored wind sock. That was slightly off the mark... The draco standard was introduced in the roman army some two and a half centuries after Caesar...
- I liked the Senate and the senators. This was pretty well done, including the numerous acts of violence. Politics at that time were quite physical..
- There is no extant source for the women's role in all this affair. Whether for Atia or Servilia. But the script is interesting. It's probable they had some influence but we don't know anthyting about it.
- The women's attires are a work of pure imagination. Very nice though..
- A good description of the popular districts in Rome with the local strong man and his goons. Not enough fountains, though. The neighborhoods in Rome were organised around fountains at crossroads. In Caesar's time, an average Roman used up more water than a modern Roman.
- The young man playing Octavian --future Augustus Caesar-- was perfect: refined, cruel and remarkably intelligent. The true political animal. He never slept with his sister.
- The guy playing Caesar was not it. I don't know why but I just cannot figure which actor would have enough charisma and presence to play Caesar. And at that time, ole Julius was bald and skinny, not athletic with a full set of hair.
- The guy playing the centurion whose name I don't remember looked like Vladimir Putin..
- The Gauls were NOT hirsute and dirty. As for arms... The mail coat and the helmets of the Romans were originally gallic designs. As for the famous gladius sword, its name was Gladius Hispaniensis. "The spanish sword". When the Romans saw that something was good, they adopted it.
- Vercingetorix was not strangled in public. After being paraded in the triumph he was taken back to the Tullianum prison and ritually strangled there.
..And so on...
But it's worth watching. The story is good.
Although, come to think of it, the story of the centurion and his unfaithful wife bored me to tears.
What else? Ah yes: Cleopatra was a remarkable politician who managed to put both Caesar and Mark Anthony in her bed and thus retain her power for quite some time. She was not a nymphomaniac dope fiend.
I just looooved it when Caesar gets aggravated at the little Ptolemy child pharaoh and shouts "SIT DOWN!" and stresses the seriousness of the crime of having Pompey beheaded.. "A ROMAN CONSUL!!!"

On this link you'll find the face of the real Caesar. It's a bust of him made while he was alive --unlike most of the others-- that I photoshopped a bit. I consider it a masterpiece. The sculptor managed to show both faces of the man: the graceful, slightly smiling face on the left, and the face of a guy you wouldn't want to cross, never ever, on the right. Take a piece of paper, hide one side of his face and check out for yourself, it's really impressive..
http://www.ancientworlds.net/member/Lucretius/antoninus

Max Pirkis plays Octavian. I first saw him in another very good role, that of the thirteen-year-old midshipman on HMS Surprise in Master and Commander, and he was excellent in that one also.

The legionaire you're thinking about is Lucius Vorenus, who, in the series, rises from the rank of Centurion, Second Pilon to Prefect of the XIII legion and then, after retiring from the army, to the office of magistrate. The role is played by an actor Kevin McKidd, and he's excellent.

I caught that inaccuracy about Vercingetorix; I remember reading how he was taken to the strangling post in the basement of the prison after the Triumph.

Overall, I thought the series was good, and some of the story lines were excellent. I thought the violence was a trifle overdone, and the emphasis on rampant, excessive and almost mindless sexuality was way over the top. An empire whose leadership was that depraved would not have lasted five years, much less five hundred. Much of that perception of Rome's upper classes comes from the decidedly jaundiced views of the Puritans and Calivinists in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, who used the alleged behavior as the explanation for the fall of Rome, and, by extension, a warning to their contemporaries against such excess. Even today, there are certain evangelicals --can you spell Pat Robertson?-- who continue to use Rome as a metaphor against what they see as excesses in America, to the same purpose. In the end, the Roman Empire was brought down by two major forces: A series of devestating plagues, particulalrly along the Adriatic seaboards, that wiped out several generations of young men, depriving the empire of both soldiers and agricultural workers; and the fatal decision to incorporate unassimilated foreign soldiers into the Roman army but to leave them as separate commands within the army.

A better series than most, and thank God they used almost exclusively British actors --can you imagine Sean Penn as Caesar, or Brad Pitt as Mark Antony?-- and modern Romans as extras.

FJB

Rome is currently being shown in Denmark, but I bought it on dvd before, and I saw the entire thing in one day! I was so thrilled about it, that I had to see more!

I wish, they could hurry up with the second season. I bet it'll be great!

I missed the Gaul episodes (and two chances of seeing the guy who played Tipper in BoB as one of Antony's retinue) and spent most of the rest of the series wondering when I'd see a full-scale battle sequence. Imagine my disappointment when the entire war between Cleopatra & Caesar and the anti-Cleo forces was fought and won offscreen. Immediately I thought budget constraints. That art direction and set design had to be expensive.

Actually, as historical/entertainment, I loved this series -- entertainment-wise, as a guilty pleasure watching the machinations of the women. Though I think Atia might want to sue, the created "character" of Atia was one I always enjoy. Max Pirkis' Octavian (Octavius?) just deserves all the kudos he's getting. The presentation of Servilia was moving and chilling. Personally I was much taken by the miniseries' version of Brutus, and the actor who played him.

I hope the second series gives me more of both. Hopefully in battle in Syria and Asia Minor. plus maybe the battle of actium with lots of CG ships.

How big a role does Asterix the Gaul have in this series? It'd better be a major one....

I'm surprised you feel this way. I thought he did an excellent job as Caesar and "sold" the part really well but then again I am by no means an expert on ancient history. I just thought he carried himself in a way you would imagine a man like Caesar might do. I have to say though that the killing of Caesar was extremely well done, they way they filmed it and the way it was acted. That look Caesar gives Brutus as he dies...that was just superb acting.

..And imagine mine when the battle of Pharsalus, one of the most brilliant military moves of ancient history was reduced to Pompey making drawings in the sand..

Imagine mine also when they reduced Vercingetorix to some kind of hairy bum. As I wrote before, not only the Gauls weren't hirsute but they impressed the Romans by their cleanliness. Gallic warriors shaved their chests..
And incidentally the Gauls invented soap..
Also incidentally, the helmet worn by Vercingetorix dates back from the Hallstatt culture, some five centuries before the facts. They were antiquarians but not THAT antiquarian...
Another incidentally: Vercingetorix was a leader of truly exceptional abilities. Try holding together an army of about 150 000 made exclusively of Gallic tribesmen with oversized egos and an attitude..
And about Caesar --and Cicero, and Pompey, and Marcus Antonius-- not being it: I didn't mean their performance as actors. They are all very good. It's just that we happen to know exactly how these people looked like. We have the sculptures. So when I saw the actor playing Caesar, or Cicero, or the others, they just did not look like the original. In the series Caesar wasn't... I guess, ironic enough. Caesar wasn't only smart, he was supremely witty. They missed out on wit.
Now a message for all future sword and sandal movie makers: I personally know of at least fifty good people -- including me -- who'd be able and willing to advice you on military equipment and techniques of the period, so that next time I'll be able to watch ancient soldiers look like ancient soldiers and I won't go "Oh no!! Not the Hollywod helmet again.. Oh no!! and now the leather armour..."
And I didn't mention the centurio's whistle. Who in the Universe came out with that crazy idea?
But well, I guess I know too much about that period to be able to enjoy sword and sandal movies anymore.
I guess it will help some of us to learn a bit more about what Rome was.
A little bit is still something.

Slightly off topic, but I was wondering if you had come across a computer game called Total War Rome. The game engine was used in a BBC series called Time Commnaders where members of the public would re-fight classic battle such as Pharsalus and Cannae. If you had seen it, I was wondering how historicaly accurate it was.

http://www.totalwar.com/

Steve

Steve,

I loved that programme, can you get this on the X Box? Or is it PC only?

PC only, I believe.

Steve