I've been reading the last couple of hours on the posts referencing Liebgott over the history of the site. Some of them are very familiar to me (the epic 2002 reunion threads especially, and Doc Mo's Dogtags thread) while some I'd overlooked (apparently a TV Guide article where someone talked to Joseph Liebgott Sr.? how could that be possible?), and now I want to know what everyone thinks on the question:

If Liebgott was never Jewish, how did his comrades come to believe he was?

While there can still be some question over his religion during the war, if his children say that his parents were Catholic, as the children are, then he must have been Catholic, and did not only become Catholic post-war due to some conversion experience (or falling in love with a Catholic girl and converting).

And yet you get the persistent memory of his comrades that he was Jewish.

How did that happen, I wonder? Did they just assume it at the time, and he never corrected them? (But why didn't he?) Was it, like Blithe's death, a post-war assumption he wasn't around to correct? Or did he actually pretend he was Jewish? (But why would he?)

Jay, remember that the children did not know the wartime Liebgott. He married after the war. So there's every reason to assume that he became a Catholic after the war. Remember that there were reports that he "dropped out" of society for a time. Perhaps a change of religion was part of a general reinvention of himself when he came back.

What does this have to do with anything? To be Jewish or not to be Jewish? So what.

I was content with that too, Doug, until some of the other posts in my search turned up statements, attributed to his children, saying their grandparents were also Catholic.

Your friends posting under "Doc Mo"in 2003 produced what I thought was a plausible explanation -- his dogtags were marked Catholic for protection, knowing what the Nazis would do if they captured him -- but ... I'm sorry, I keep forgetting her name -- our resident historian mentioned his kids' insisting the family had always been Catholic.

So what I'm seeing is either a mistake that was never corrected, or a deliberate ... well, deception is too negative a word -- a different story. In a time when anti-Semitism was not just the murderous kind practiced by the Nazis, but the common kind practiced in "restricted" clubs and daily life. If he never said he was Jewish, why did his friends think he was, and why didn't he correct them? I know no one has the "real" answers, but no other site will have posters who are as capable of informed speculation, as this one.

I know that the world was a much, much different place back then, but perhaps he converted to Judaism when he was 18 or so? I was brought up in the same Catholic family that my four brothers were, and two of them began to question their religious beliefs at that age- which I think is very normal- and one actually became a methodist (still is), while the other flirted with a number of different religions before deciding that he was Catholic after all. I think that all we can do here is speculate, but that might be one explanation.

Sarah

Both Bill and Babe have reaffirmed that while they served with him, he said he was Jewish. So does Joe Lesniewski and Ralph Spina.


So the story remains a question mark???

I'm not questioning them. I'm wondering, and asking for opinions, on why he said he was Jewish, if he wasn't. His children believe that their grandparents in Oakland weren't. I suppose they could be wrong, if they didn't get in touch with them, but I don't know that. So I wonder.

I was asked why this is important. I suppose it's not, in general, but it's important to me. Joseph Liebgott has become something close to an obsession of mine, particularly ever since I found out about his missing 3 years and the shock that reverberated through the 2002 reunion when his children finally appeared. When Easy's story was transposed from page to screen, he became one of the most iconic personalities in the miniseries, intimately tied to three of the most vivid images of the story -- holding Tipper in Carentan; translating at Landsberg; and the killing of the 'kommandant' in Austria. His being Jewish was a truth believed by everyone, and was important to the story in the series -- as it should be, considering the nature of the enemy in Europe. If he said he was Jewish -- and it seems neither his parents nor his children were -- then I'm looking at a young man who went into war not just facing danger, but doubling it, willingly.



That's a possibility I considered, but I didn't think it was plausible until you reiterated it. Maybe he had a spiritual kinship with Judaism in his teens. I'm Catholic too and cradle Catholics are more often than not very experimental with other religions in their adolescences.

I wonder if on some level he developed a solidarity with the persecuted as the Nazis began their persecutions -- which would tie into his special animosity to the Germans.

It doesn't matter to me either way but when I became a BOB fan I assumed the writers did their homework. It just is another inaccurcy of the series that vexes me. I hope they try harder for BOb Pacific to be right on the money. I'm in love with the truth and accuracy specially with this subject matter. remember they went out of their way to show a fist fight between him and wildbill. did that happen? If so was it really over religion? My spelling vexes me too.

I agree, it doesn't matter, but all that is sought is the accuracy of Liebgotts character depiction in the series and the confusion it raised.



That struck home with me re flirting with other religions. I attended a Seminary training to be a RC Priest, left and questioned not my religion but religion as a whole. I also flirted with other religions such as Bhudhism, Judaism and very nearly became a Mormon, I quickly realised I was not quite in the proper frame of mind and was utterly confused and did not attend the baptising ceremony. I am still a RC but not quite the one I used to be.

I find it hard to believe that Liebgott's character depiction was incorrectly portrayed as Jewish, mind you Blythe died of his wounds years before he fought in Korea!!!

Ian, in my house you were Catholic whether or not you liked it until you were 18.... only then could you choose your religion. I never felt the need to go on a spiritual-seeking journey; to me, being Catholic is just another part of my family history, and I embrace all aspects of it, good and bad. However, I completely understand why some people seek out and identify with other religions that they were not born into. This is the only explanation that I can think of to explain some of the discrepancies surrounding Liebgott and his portrayal in the series.

Sarah

It's not that the writers were mistaken -- it's that it's what everyone actually believed. Even after his kids appeared, I chalked it up to a postwar conversion, maybe as simple as falling in love with someone who is more attached to their religion than you are to yours. But as I researched the posts on this board last night, it seems that his own parents weren't Jewish. The other vets, his friends, recall him as Jewish because Liebgott told them so.

Maybe it seems strange to some, but I don't think of this as catching someone in a lie, or an inaccuracy that must be corrected. It seems like assuming a diffferent identity, which may be more accurate to how you feel about yourself at the time, than the identity you were born with. and works for you -- until it stops. His missing years haunt me.

Tony N., your expectations are not the ones I have. A mini-series is not a documentary. The writers, in my opinion, are entitled to license, so long as they maintain a respect for the facts as they know them, and an eye on the prize of doing honor to these vets. I think the BOB writers achieved that with flying colors.

There were errors of fact that I wish they had caught -- Blithe high on the list. Perhaps the portrayal of Sobel. But the writers were reasonably relying, at least in part, on Dr. Ambrose and the knowledge and memories of the E Co. vets. It would have been better if those mistakes hadn't happened. But, most important, they got at the essential truths.

Other departures from history were driven by narrative or dramatic interests, which is part of what goes into a dramatization. Still, they cared about keeping faith with the vets. I think it was just fine for the writers to take the German widow sequence in Ep. 9, which actually happened to Major Winters, and assign it to Nix for reasons of thematic development. But it's fine only because they asked Major Winters first, and he agreed. I don't really care whether Wild Bill and Joe got into an actual fight; the odds that they might have are consistent with their characters as we know them. Works for me.

As to Liebgott's religion. This is an issue hard to untangle years after the series. What did the junior Liebgotts make of the book, "BOB", which came out in the early '90's and portrayed Joe as an avenging Jew? Why were they reticent in the face of this conundrum if the family was definitively Catholic? I dunno. And I don't fault the writers for not knowing either, and going with the reports of the other vets.

I have every reason to believe that Bruce will have researched the narratives he's portraying to a fare-thee-well. But there's no guarantee that, as with all history, there will be departures from what actually happened. And, as with all drama, there will be license.

Get at the essential truth. Honor the vets with a well-done miniseries, with dramatic license where justified. I'll be happy.

Well said Doug. There are many stories about vets in WW2 whose actions during it remain a mystery to their families.

Doug has it right. If you're writing an After Action Report, that's one thing -- and there's no guarantee the whole truth winds up in those either as often context is completely absent. With a true story, the dramatist requires a different discipline -- Doug has a very good handle on that aspect of creative production. In this instance, there were two other elements -- the nearly 45+-year old memories of the veterans who intersected with Ambrose in '89 & '90 and then the 55-year old memories of those who were still with us when the mini-series went into production.

Now, if you're talking about a documentary, then we'll all hold the filmmakers' feet to the fire. We'll want it absolutely accurate. I should think that is at least as tough an assignment when the source material is limited and who can vouch for its rigid veracity -- which is why we often note that History is a far more fluid thing than many of us would like.

Still, it's a rare treatment of any of this history that doesn't engage me at some level, particularly if it's an eyewitness-generated chronicling that focuses on small unit actions. BK

Hi all,

I have discussed this with people many times, and I have a theory. Could it be that Liebgott's family (who were definitely German speaking) had both Catholic and Jewish origins? Supposing Liebgott's parents were 1 Catholic 1 Jewish, he was raised as a Catholic and lived his later years as a Catholic, but during the war his Jewish-side came to surface? His tags said RC, but to his friends he referred to himself as Jewish out of sympathy/respect for the people being persecuted in Europe.

I was also told by Ed Shames (who is Jewish) that when he was an officer he used to borrow a truck to take the Jewish members of Easy to various services with the 506th Jewish Chaplain, and that Liebgott was definitely not one of the group of around 15 Easy Company Jewish troopers.

Paul

See Chapter Three Liebgotts Arrive.

Thanks for that latter detail, Paul! Made my day to know Shames did that. As for your theory, I think it's plausible too, although from what's been posted on the boards over the years, it seems both Liebgott's parents were Catholic -- Austrian. Joe was their firstborn and was born in the States, 1915 or 1916. And another member who signed up posted on the 02 Reunion thread about the Liebgotts that he was also surnamed Liebgott and as far as he knew his family had been German-Catholic for generations. It seems clear, though, that Liebgott found a very strong reason to let himself be known as Jewish during the war in Europe, and after his disappearance, came back to his parents' religion.

I wonder where in Southern California he turned up.

I had breakfast with Babe Heffron today and I asked him specifically about Liebgott. He me a story that he has told several times. It seems that a call went out for Jewish troopers to to leave the line and head back to Bastogne for Chanukah services on approx 12/23-24/44. Babe asked his assistant gunner , Eddie Stein (From St Louis) why he wasn't going back and Eddie said that he didn't feel right leaving the squad. Babe said to him

" Liebgott is going back and why didn't he go back with himand catch a break?"

Thanks for this--another amazing detail.

So Shames recalls Liebgott not joining in on his gathering, but Babe remembers Joe going to Bastogne for an important holiday service. Not, of course, that this is necessarily a conflict; it could be as simple as me not going to an ordinary-time Sunday Mass but going on Christmas Eve, among other things. (And Babe was probably closer to Liebgott than Shames was.)

I think the specificity of Babe's memory testifies against the "Blithe's death"-type hypothesis, even considering how memory works.

If only I could zero on in the Alameda County part of Joe's story -- who he was, before the war. That's the crux of my quandary -- it's easy enough to consider a Jewish boy going off to avenge his people against the Nazis with dogtags marked RC, then converting afterwards, for whatever reason. It's his parents' being Catholic (if accurate) that intrigues me, and suggests an even deeper story than what he already has.

Ed Shames was 3rd platoon and Liebgott was Second Platoon. Officers didn't spend much time socializing with enlisted men from other platoons. Too many of Easy soldiered with Joe from Taccoa to Kaprun to be wrong. Ed Shames came in just before Bastogne and was in a different platoon for just a few months, I don't think he shared many leaves with Joe like othe rmembers did. Not to question Col Shames , but the majority says differently than he remembers and they have examples of Joe's faith. After the war it would seem that Joe was the victim of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

This just makes this inaccuracy all the worse for me. How do you screw up something like this. This takes the artistic liscence to a different level. An absolute falsehood. Hope they don't go this far with John Basilones charector.

It's no worse that saying Blythe died of his wounds after the end of WW2 when in fact he was quite alive and IIRC went on to distinguish himself during the Korean War.

To me this Liebgott thing adds a interesting human element. Here are these guys who are with each other every second of every day for years and there is this "inconsistency", real or otherwise. It shows that not matter how well you know and inherently trust someone with nothing less than your life that there are things you may never know 100%.

No offense but I think your comments about artistic liscence and absolute falsehoods are over the top. To me you are saying that the whole of BoB, its writers, and creators are lying bastards. Idon't think you really mean that, right? It is and was an inconsistency that even Mr. Liebgott's surviving family can't untangle.

R,
Paul

Whoa steady as she goes brother you're taking it a bit to serious. I better bail from this conversation before I get a 2x4 on the back of the head in some dark parking lot. Peace brothers have a good day life is not that serious.

Tony, I agree with the others that your characterization of falsehood is not quite fair when discussing a film depiction of events from 60 years ago. And I agree with you that life (or at least this particular conversation) doesn't have to be so serious. Maybe you didn't intend it to be.

Anyway, as for any depiction of Basilone, reams have been written about him. He was KIA in February 1945 -- his story is written in stone. If the screenwriters did their homework, they interviewed guys who have 60-year memories about incidental stuff that may or may not have seen the light of day before OR be strictly accurate. Though there may be no need for any dramatization to fill in unknown blanks there. So if you one day learn that some incidental dialog coming from the actor portraying Basilone can be proved to be "made up", I sure hope it won't push you to accuse this team of writers as well.

I often say that I go to the movies, sit down and prepare to believe everything that unfolds, because it IS the movies! If I want history, I'll read 8 or 10 volumes on the topic from many different angles and know in my heart that it will still be only an approximation, a damned good one, but nevertheless the best recollection of those who where there. BK

As I was reading though this thread I had thoughts along the same lines. Could it be that the Liebgott family was religiously Jewish earlier in the family tree, and more recently converted to Catholicism? In that case one could see how Liebgott might choose to describe himself as Jewish.

Also, can you be Jewish in heritage but Catholic in faith? I.e. do you have to be practicing religiously to be called Jewish? Can you be a Jewish Catholic, just like you could be a Norwegian Lutheran, or a Polish Catholic? Just questions.

First, I never met Liebgott. I never met anyone who knew him. I know absolutely nothing about his family or his religious practices. Therefore what I have to say may not have any application to this situation whatsoever.

I do know that this country has changed one hell of a lot since the 1940s. It has changed one hell of a lot since 1960, when many people very seriously stated that we should not vote for a presidential candidate because he was a catholic. Looking at Liebgott's situation through modern eyes will give you a very distorted image. A (re?)-reading of The Young Lions will give you a better picture.

The main question is, what is meant by "Jewish?"

I went to school with many jewish children -- right up through college. Many of them I counted as friends. To my knowledge and belief, none of them claimed or felt any allegience to any political entity other than the United States. However, they tended to view themselves as a people apart. Their reaction to expressions of interest in a Jewish girl by a gentile was not dissimilar to the reaction of a white man to similar expressions about a white girl by a black man. To what extent this was a reaction to the discrimination they faced from Gentiles (which was very real if not nearly as visible as that faced by blacks) is an interesting question, but of no moment here.

Both here (to some extent at least) and in Germany, the question was treated as being one of race, not of religion. Conversion to protestantism would neither get you out, nor keep you out, of Auschwitz. Neither baptism nor communion would get a "Chiam Goldstein" [fictitious name -- any relation to persons living or dead is purely coincidental] membership in an exclusive New York club. To my personal knowledge, as recently as the late 1950s, men of jewish ancestry were changing their names to those not identifiably jewish to avoid the economic consequences of being Jewish in America.

It is not impossible that a man named Liebgott would be assumed by his WASP comrades to be Jewish, and that they would dismiss his denials as the effort of a "jew-boy" to escape the consequences of his birth (just as lignt-skinned blacks often tried -- some successfully -- to cross the color line). One response to that would be to say, "Okay, I'm Jewish! So what?" The answer would, for the most part, be "I dunno!" Those who would shun him for being Jewish would have shunned him because they believed him to be Jewish, so he would have lost nothing there. Most of his comrades would have accepted him as the man he was, whereas they might have distanced themselves from someone who they believed was pretending to be something he wasn't. Apparently the only instance of him practicing the Jewish religion was at Bastogne, when most of the men would have sold their souls for an hour in a warm room and a hot cup of coffee.

That seems as likely an explanation as any -- and until we get a chance to talk to Liebgott about it, we will never know!

Mike

Sorry Mike, but he attended other Jewish services before Bastogne according to Babe Heffron.

Mike