The battle of Hurtgen forest is one of the forgotten and one of the bloodiest battles of WWII. 50 square miles of hilly, rugged terrain became a meatgringer for the American troops. Germans heavily dug in along the Siegfried line caused heavy casualties to U.S. divisions that fought in here. The 28th (Keystone) Division, the oldest one in the U.S. army suffered the biggest casualties and the Germans gave a nick ‘bloody bucket’ to this division. When the battle was over, 24 000 Americans were dead, wounded or captured. Do you think that the battle in this military unimportant area should ever be fought? The Allies could simply bypass the forest.

Lip, I'll be glad to engage on the Huertgen, but first please use the search function to read some of our earlier discussions. My father fought there, and I have posted a reading list about the Huertgen more than once.

Happy reading, Doug

Update: Lip, I just read your intro to find that you're from the Czech Republic. I'm intrigued that you would be interested in a battle that I've been hearing about all my life, but that has received comparatively little attention until recently. I look forward to your reactions to my existing posts on the Huertgen.

I also reviewed, negatively, a warflick set in the Huertgen. Search for "A Time for Trumpets" to read the review.

The American historian Charles Whiting wrote about the Huertgen Forest. I will look up for the title of his book.

Frank

The title of Charles Whiting’s book is ‘The battle of Hurtgen Forest’ (published by Pocket Books, New York in 1989). Sad is that this book (and any other based on this battle) is not available for sale, here in Czech Republic.

Other handy books on Huertgen include

"One More River" by Peter Allen, which starts off with the Huertgen.

"The Siegfried Line Campaign" volume of the US Army Official History is good, too.

Ambrose touches on it in "Citizen Soldiers."

Those are the ones that come to mind. Is it in "Company Commander?"

This is copied from a recent post in response to a question about the Huertgen on another thread.

As to the Huertgen, Bobfish, I can get you started. The US Army Military History series (the "Green Books") did an excellent job in its early treatment of the Huertgen, which was highly critical of the US high command, in "The Siegfried Line Campaign," by Charles B. MacDonald. Two much more recent books contain significant patches of quotes from my father's memoirs: "A Dark and Bloody Ground," by Colonel Ed Miller, and "The Bloody Forest," by Gerald Astor. Another first person memoir contains riveting descriptions of the price paid by the 4th Division in the Huertgen: George Wilson, "If You Survive."

Historians have been unanimously harsh in their criticism of the US generals who elected to attack into the Huertgen, suffering horrendous attrition, and grinding up major parts of the 9th, 28th, and 4th Divisions, in terrain that is largely impassable on foot, let alone motorized column. Thus neutralizing most of the US advantages, including air superiority and mobility. I think it was Hemingway who called it "Passchendale with tree bursts."

It has tended to be overlooked as an Amerian debacle because it was overshadowed by Market-Garden and the Bulge. But the US Army started to penetrate the forest in mid-September, 1944, and did not take the Roer dams that were the after-the-fact rationalization for the offensive until February, 1945.


One of the reasons why my father was not fond of US generals.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

There was another post from TomC with an excellent link to an historian who reviews the literature above, and reaches the conclusion that in fact, the attack was justified. He doesn't do a great job in supporting that thesis, but it's an interesting contrarian viewpoint.

BTW, I am not a fan of the Charles Whiting book on the Huertgen, which I think over-the-top in its adjectives, and inaccurate in some details, including the story of the Frenzerberg.

Doug:

So no one has to hunt and peck about, I shall post it here:

Neglected Objectives: An Historiography of the Huertgen Forest Campaign 1944-1945
by Gregory Canellis

This is, at least to me, one of the more intriguing and tragic battles of the ETO.

Hindsight being what it is, we can look back and call it a debacle. Not so sure it was the worst of ideas during August-September '44, when we were 3 months into a successful breakout of Normandy, and then the liberation of Paris, and racing through France as fast as our tanks and supplies could take us.

Yes, very bad terrain and terrible weather. Yes, fighting on the enemy border-front against an entrenched, positioned and experienced enemy. Yes, supply problems, reinforcement problems, priority problems, probably bad senior leadership. But we had to keep the push and the pressure on.

The price was incredibly high for such little gain. It's such an unfortunate, almost unavoidable reality of war.

I frequently watch "When Trumpets Fade", just for hint of the misery and sacrifice. Good or bad movie aside, I appreciate the effort in depicting the battle. Every time I see pictures of the 28th marching in column in Paris during the liberation, I say to myself "if only you fellas knew what was ahead".

Lipton, thanks for bringing this topic up again.

Paul

In my view one of the biggest mistakes in this battle was the command of general
Hodges, who was sending his soldiers on dead.

Other problem was the terrain (as was mentioned by psumner), which caused the immobility of armored units and the fog - no air support.

I’ve also seen the movie ’When…’ and liked it, but it was too short (cca 84 min.).

I remain slightly sceptical of this comparison mind you.

Passchendaele was something else completely, just the word is notorious. Just say it; Passchendaele.....it's come to sum up all the ceaseless violence and destruction, and sheer waste of men, aswell as the depths to which men will go to destroy each other. Of uncaring British Generals flinging men through knee deep mud.....driving rain....

Maybe it's just in Britain mind you, and Huertgen has the same impact as Passchendaele and Ypres does over here. But WW1 kind of broke Britain.....and the implications are still felt today.

Not trying to get into any arguments here (no Appel, honestly I'm not...please be gentle ), as who am I to say which battle was worse? (all battles are horrific). But to me Passchendaele sets the tone for misery and horror.

Dunno why I had to write this. It was just on my mind. Just re-read a book on the battle, and had to say something about it....and this was the best place as there is no WW1 forum round here.

Bobfish, Gino was planning on starting a WWI forum here at some point, but I guess he got side-tracked. John (McIntee) had directed me to a WWI site which you may already be aware of:
http://www.1914-1918.net/
It is a great site, but it's so humungous, everytime I sign onto the forum, there are 12 pages of stuff to scan through. I can't keep up with it at all. I am very interested in WWI as well. More Canadians died in that war than in WWII.

Vee

Paul, as to the initial decision to enter the Huertgen, I'm open minded.

Yes, the U.S. entered it with all the momentum they'd gathered from the pursuit through France and Belgium. And my father's initial experience seemed to validate the decision. DOD and his company walked for FOUR DAYS through the extended Huertgen in middle September without contact, a measure of the density of the forest, and the Germans' not-yet-gelled defenses. As a result, DOD and his men captured a German kolonel walking along reading a map with no awareness that the U.S were near.

And they captured Schevenhutte without much of a fight, a position far to the east of the US forces to the South. Which ultimately turned out to be the jumping off point for the 1st Division when the high command realized that the six weeks of attacks to the south were futile.

I fault the U.S. high command for sending more and more units into a losing proposition, without any change in circumstances that could reasonably have led them to expect that the outcome would be different for the new units. Here, I think history SHOULD judge them harshly.

Paul thanks for your attention to the battle, and I welcome your different perspective.

But it's STILL a lousy movie. y.o.s., Doug

Doug,

Do you think the US Generals were willing to send wave after wave of troops into a horrible battle partly because they had not had an experience like a Passchendaele in their history to remind them? Perhaps that explains the seeming reluctance in some cases on the part of the British to merely fling troops into battle, because they had lost so many in the past. At the time of Huertgen the US had not really suffered casualties of that magnitude yet. Just random thoughts on my part, but I am interested in different perspectives.

Cheers!

Mark

Mark, it's a good question.

But it's hard for me to accept that it was simple obtuseness on the part of the high command. To the extent that they were West Pointers, they'd studied not only the folly of the bayonet charges in Flanders, but also of the frontal assault at Cold Harbor in the Civil War. It was bedrock U.S. Army doctrine to avoid the frontal assault against fixed positions.

Hence the doctrine pounded into the infantry at Benning: fire and manuever. Set down a base of fire and manuever for the flanks. Fix the enemy in place and call in artillery. And, increasingly during 1944, if you had a flyboy forward observer, call in the jabos.

The assaults in the Huertgen mostly did not reflect this doctrine. The trees were so dense (and I did not really appreciate their denseness until walking, stooped, under and between them) that they defeated any medium-range fire, made air support impossible, largely negated artillery spotting, and made coherent movement very difficult.

It is true that U.S. public opinion had not hardened against bayonet charges across No-Man's land in the way that British public opinion had. But American officers were thoroughly indoctrinated in the concept of avoiding frontal assaults, where possible. Yet the First Army did so in the Huertgen. And Patton's Third Army did so in Metz.

Mark, I wish I had a better answer. But I don't as yet. Thanks for the question, Doug

Doug, do you think perhaps the recent success in driving the Germans across France made them feel a degree of superiority they didn't possess thus leading them to disregard doctrine in the Huertgen and against Metz? I think it certainly played a part in the planning and execution of Market Garden to disasterous results.

Cheers!

Mark

Mark, I think you're quite right about the effect of momentum on tactics. And there's tremendous merit to the idea of staying on the advance, trying to keep the enemy off balance, not letting them have time to regroup, and so on.

And that informs my response to Paul. I'm fully on board with the initial assaults, an attempt to keep the offensive rhythm flowing.

But, after the initial attack was stalled, there was no momentum to exploit. By the end of September, two regiments of the 9th, a veteran outfit, had been badly chewed up in the Huertgen. But the high command continued to feed in units -- the 4th, the 28th, the 8th -- long after the pursuit had ended, and a battle of attrition had begun.

That's the part I have a hard time understanding.

Doug, it seems you know the Hurtgen battle stuff very well, so I would like to ask you some questions about the facts I don’t know, yet:
1. Somewhere I heard that also German 3rd Fallschirmjäger Division fought in the forest. Is it true/not true?
2. Did the 2nd Ranger Battalion, which has captured the Hill 400, really have 90% casualties? What German division was defending the hill? When exactly did the German forces recapture it?
3. There were many ‘combat fatigue’ cases in Hurtgen. What is the exact number of American troops that were unable to fight during the various parts of the battle?
4. Finally, general Hodges. Was he really a bad commander who was hazarding with lives of his men or was there something else?

Appel, that post to me was aimed squarely between my eyes, and it hurt somewhat.

Sorry. No criticism was intended in my original post at all. Just commenting on the comparison between the two, I wasn't being "Anti-US" as you seem to think, but maybe it's my writing style that's to blame.

Actually, if it makes it any better, I bought some books about the battle today - and there are comparisons between the two battles. When the Ardennes offensive kicked off, did the US Generals really have to retreat and give up the ground they won? I noticed something like that when I was skimming through the book....(may be wrong though) but exactly the same happened at Passchendaele.

But in future I'll avoid talking about US battles if you want me to

Signing off.

Passchendaele wasn't just a trauma seared into the British consciousness. Canadians, kiwis, anzacs not to mention germans were all slaughtered there!
I think the question here is whether or not Hemmingway was qualified to make such a comparison?

Yes of course....my mistake. It was the Canadians who actually captured Passchendaele village let's not forget. I keep writing "British", when I should also mention the Commonwealth aswell.....apologies to all, not blinkered vision on my part...just forgetfulness.

Anyways...maybe a WW1 forum will appear in the future, so we can discuss it there without going far off topic in this current thread.

I don't mind the comparison to Passchendaele myself. As Roobarb mentioned Canadians by the 1000's were literally chewed up there. I took a moment the other day to take a quick look over the names on the war memorial here in Edmonton, I have not counted but the list is extensive of those who died in WW1, many at the battles at Ypres. What struck me most was the great number especially when considering the population of Edmonton at the time. There truly was a generation lost. I think everyone feels a sense of waste when considering battles such as Huertgen and the Bulge which really wound up being very costly for very little gain.

Cheers!

Mark

Howdy..

Whilst doing a bit of Googling about Huertgen, I came across an account written by a German soldier who fought there. I'm not sure if this link has been published before, and if so then I'm sorry (it's my inept use of the Search tool that's to blame).

http://vl.herr.home.att.net/HansStory.htm

It's laid at in a style that confused me somewhat when I first glanced at it, but soon figured it out.

While searching for websites, related to the battle I found this poem:

YOU STAND IN WATER UP TO YOUR KNEES
AS THE BULLETS WHISTLE THROUGH THE TREES.
THIS IS GERMANY IN NINETEEN FORTY FOUR
YOUR FRIENDS HAVE VANISHED BY THE SCORE.
THE COLD RATIONS YOU CAN EAT NO MORE
THE SIGHTS OF DEATH THAT YOU DEPLORE.
DEATH IS YOUR COMPANION DAY AND NIGHT
HE STANDS BY YOUR SIDE IN EVERY FIGHT.
HE REVELS IN EACH EXPLODING SHELL
HE LOVES THE ACRID POWDER SMELL.
LAUGHS AS YOUR FRIENDS ARE BLOWN TO HELL
AND OVER THE LIVING HE CASTS HIS SPELL.
A HUNDRED MEN WENT DOWN THIS FOREST TRACT
NOW FIFTY OF US ARE COMING BACK.
DEATH STANDS IN THE SHADOWS WEARING A GRIN
HE HAS ALL THOSE SOULS RIDING WITH HIM.
AND HE CAN SEE THE BAD SHAPE WE ARE IN
HE KNOWS TOMORROW HE WILL WIN.
WE KNOW THE ENEMY AT FIRST LIGHT
WILL COME TO FINISH UP THIS FIGHT.
IT'S BEST TO MEET HIM ON OPEN GROUND
WHERE OUR BIG GUNS CAN THIN HIS RANKS DOWN.
WITHOUT OUR CANNON TO ROAR AND POUND.
NONE OF US WILL EVER BE FOUND.
IT'S NOW MORNING THE SKY IS OVERCAST
WE CAN SEE OUR ENEMY AT LAST.
NOW WE CAN SEE HIS ADVANCE SCOUTS
AS HIS BUNKER DOOR OPENS AND HE STEPS OUT.
TODAY WILL BE ANOTHER ROUT
GOD REALLY DOES FAVOR THE KRAUTS.
WE FALL BACK ANOTHER THOUSAND YARD'S OR TWO
WITH JUST FIFTY MEN WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO?
SKIRMISH BY DAY DIG IN EACH NIGHT
TOO FEW OF US TO PUT UP A FIGHT .
THOUSANDS OF THE ENEMY ALWAYS IN PLAIN SIGHT
THE HUERTGEN FOREST IS A HELL OF A PLACE TO FIGHT.

Elmer Ake

And here’s another one from Elmer Ake:

A NEW REPLACEMENT HAS ARRIVED AT THE SCENE
STROLLING THROUGH THE HUERTGEN WOODS SO GREEN.
ONLY A CAMERA IN HIS TREMBLING HAND
AS HE SURVEYED THIS GOD FORSAKEN LAND.
WHERE BRAVE GERMAN SOLDIERS MADE THEIR STAND
AND AMERICAN'S CHARGED THEM AS PLANNED.

WHERE WE CRAWLED FORWARD TO MEET THE FOE
PATRICK WALKS UPRIGHT WHEREVER HE WANTS TO GO.
NO HIDDEN MINES UNDER HIS FEET
NO SNIPERS WILL HE CHANCE TO MEET.
NOT BOTHERED BY WINTER COLD OR THE HEAT
OF BATTLE OR THE DEATH ANGEL HE MUST GREET.

NOW HE STROLL'S THE SAME WOODED TRAIL
THAT WE LIMPED BACK FROM THAT BLOODY HELL.
ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY MEN STARTED THE ATTACK
NOW FIFTY FIVE OF US ARE COMING BACK.
OUR DEAD COMRADES DIDN'T BRAVERY LACK
NOW THEIR BODY'S BEFORE THE GERMANS ARE STACKED.

PATRICK AS YOU WALK DOWN THE KALL TRAIL TO HELL
CAN YOU HEAR THE VOICES OF LONG AGO AS THEY TELL.
YOU NOT TO GO DOWN THE ROAD, IT IS A PLACE TO DREAD
CAN'T YOU HEAR THE SHELL'S SCREAM OVERHEAD?
CAN'T YOU HEAR THE PITIFUL CRY'S OF THE WOUNDED?
CAN'T YOU LOOK ABOUT AND SEE THE COUNTLESS DEAD?

NOW ONLY THE GHOSTS STILL WALK THIS FOREST TRACK
THE PATHWAY WHERE ONLY A FEW CAME BACK.
THE GHOSTS STILL LINE THAT CURSED ROAD
STILL CARRY ON THEIR BACK'S THE HEAVY LOAD.
CAN'T YOU HEAR THE OFFICER'S AS THEY GOAD
THE MEN TOO HURRY AS THE SHELLS EXPLODE?

AS PATRICK AIMS HIS CAMERA, HE CAN SEE
THE SAME SIGHT'S THAT FILL MY MEMORY.
HE NOW CAN SEE THE MACHINE GUN'S FIRE
AND WATCH HIS COMRADES EXPIRE.
PATRICK YOU TO HAVE LIVED A FORGOTTEN HOUR
MAY YOU NEVER DIE IN SUCH A DREARY BOWER.

Lipton, here's a belated response to your questions:


1. 3rd Fallschirmjaeger: on Nov. 27th, my father fought against a company from the 3rd Fallschirmjaegerin the outbuildings of the Frenzerburg – not part of the Forest fighting, but in the Stolberg Corridor north of the forest and east of Aachen. The 3rd moved into the area from Holland around November 26, 1944, after the bulk of the Huertgen fighting. Charles MacDonald, “The Siegfried Line Campaign” (the “Green Book”) at 462. The Stolberg Corridor is often discussed in connection with the Huertgen, even though geographically distinct.

2. 2nd Ranger Battalion at Hill 400. According to the Green Book, two companies of the 2nd Ranger Battalion lost “more than a fourth of their original strength – 107 men wounded, 19 killed, and 4 missing.” Charles MacDonald, “The Siegfried Line Campaign” at 462. At one point in the battle, the Rangers could muster only 25 men. Id. at 462.

A second count is close: 23 dead, and 110 wounded or captured. R. Black, “Rangers in WWII” at 269. Put another way, at one point D Co. had “less than 12 men, F. Co. had about five, and E Co. had about a dozen. Id. at 267.

The German defenders were from the 272nd Volks Grenadier Division, with lots of artillery support. Id. at 462.

I have not found a reference to the Germans retaking the Hill.

3. I haven’t found any statistics on combat exhaustion for the Huertgen battle itself (it’s a hard to define battle, with many different units involved.) But the 9th Division recorded 441 exhaustion cases in September-October 1944, the height of their commitment to the Huertgen, compared to over 600 dead and almost 4,000 wounded. P. Mansoor, “The GI Offensive in Europe,” at 191.

4. The historians have not been kind to General Hodges. His chief of staff is quoted as describing Hodges as being slow to make decisions during the period. Green Book at 619. Bradley called him “indecisive and overly conservative.” Ironically, he had a reputation of concern over the welfare of him men, unlike Patton. G. Astor, “The Bloody Forest,” at 10-11. Hodges is at the center of the criticism over the Huertgen, though other high commanders, including Bradley and Collins, share in the blame. The VII Corps commander, Lightning Joe Collins, somewhat defended Hodges against second-guessing. E. Miller, “A Dark and Bloody Ground,” at 206. One historian, an active duty officer currently in Baghdad with the 1st A.D., commented that Hodges and Collins “nearly succeeded in destroying the 9th Infantry Division as a fighting organization.” P. Mansoor, “The GI Offensive in Europe” at 187. Col. Mansoor also comments on the failed attack by the 28th: “The attack would fail disastrously due not to the quality of unites involved, but to abysmally poor planning by senior-level commanders and their staffs.” Id. at 189.

There were no consequences for Hodges during the war. Criticism tended to flow instead toward division and more junior commanders for insufficient aggressiveness.


Hope this helps, and sorry for the delay, Doug

Thank you, appell8. I’ve recently found info about the German recapture of Hill 400. The hill was recaptured on 24. December after 5 repelled German counterattacks. This time the artillery barrage was so strong that the Rangers had to leave their positions and withdraw. The Hill fell back to American hands on February 1945.

Does anyone know a website where I can find photos of German soldiers in Huertgen? (not P.O.W.)

Thanks

Appel8, I think that this battle became one of my main interests from WW2. I would like to know as much as possible about it. Maybe another questions for you:
1. What was the majority of U.S. casaulties caused by - mines, artillery, mortar, machine gun or small arms fire?
2. I came about some stories of German veterans from this battle. This is one of them. What do you think about it: http://vl.herr.home.att.net/BerichtFritz.htm
3. What is the best reference material on this tragic battle? Is it Charles Whiting's The Battle of Huertgen forest?

Lip, as to #3, I responded on the first page of this same thread.

http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/index.p...topic=4461&st=0

As I mentioned, I am not a fan of Charles Whiting.

As to #1, I will be glad to check my sources if a google search doesn't answer the question for you. I don't know the answer offhand, though David may.

As to #2: What that story should underscore is the impression I got from my first reading of the "Siegfried Line Campaign" Green Book, which was reinforced by my visit there in 1994: the hard-to-describe steepness and remoteness of the Kall Trail. Which doomed the American attempt to push armor up and down it. And which explains why the Americans were forced to leave dead men and reuseable armor there. And why a tank track was still there years later. It is a breathtakingly steep gorge. Wrong place for an armor attack.

My father patrolled Monschau in December-January, three months after the writer was stationed there.

Great details. Thanks for posting the piece.

According to the badge you have as your avatar I believe your father was from 9th Infantry Division, 'Octofoil'. Am I right?

I have to admit, I had never heard of the Huertgen until I learned my grandfather was there...I have no idea of the area his unit was in (I should ask) but do know that they "only" lost 20% of their men there.

My G mentioned the Huertgen in a journal of his, but without much detail, only to say that he'll "never forget those long nights." And to note that the German artillery was timed to burst in the treetops, and when they went out to pick up branches for foxhole cover during lulls in the shelling, they were confronted with the frozen corpses of German soldiers.

The 20% loss was significant, as they were ordered almost immediately after Huertgen to take Bogheim, without any chance for replacements, thus they went in at only 80% strength. Bogheim was, as far as I know, the single costliest action for the 4th CRS (my g's unit).

Thus when my G's unit went into the Battle of the Bulge (immediately after Bogheim) to defend Celles, the combo of fighting in Huertgen and Bogheim had cost them all of their commanding officers, five out of nine platoon sergeants, and half the enlisted men.

Being short on men and facing far superior equipment in Celles cost them yet more men.

Lip, that's right. K Co., 47th Inf., 9th Division. Entered the Huertgen around September 12-14th, captured Schevenhutte and held it for weeks, then attacked north and then east into the Stolberg corridor.

What German units he fought against? What was his toughest experience (sorry if I'm too curious)? It's also interesting that despite the horrible condiditions many G.I. did exploits in Huertgenwald. For example Staff Sergeant Kommer from the 8th Inf. Div. "Golden Arrow": In one stage of the battle of Oberaumbach his squad was pinned down by machine gun fire. He's somehow lost his gun and - completely unarmed - ran to the German machine gun nest and has captured the German - with his own hands.

Lip, I had to check the relevant Green Book to answer you. Initially, the Germans counterattacked at Schevenhutte with the 48th Grenadier Regiment. Later supplemented by the 12th Division. Green Book, "The Siegfried Line Campaign" at 88-89.

Because DOD's unit got to Schevenhutte without resistance, and spent the next 6 weeks on defense, theirs was not the classic Huertgen Forest nightmare to the same degree as other units. Still, "it was not desireable," to quote the German MP in Ep. 10.

I recently asked DOD what his toughest combat had been. Without hesitation he answered "Frenzerburg."

Appell,
What Green Book do you refer to and where can I get a copy.

Thanks
Geoff

Geoff, as we've previously discussed, "Green Book" refers to the 70-odd volume series by the US Army Center of Military History about WWII history. This volume is "The Siegfried Line Campaign."

The Green Books are not the final word on WWII history. But they're usually the first stop. With tons of detail.

These used to be available from the Government Printing Office, but I don't know where they may be available now. David may have some updated info.

Good luck in your search, Doug

is there anyway i could get some areial photos of the battle, or at least the battle map plan.

Appel8, thank you for the information.
Otter: Take a look on this website: http://home.scarlet.be/~cv920172/

Lip, excellent link. Jamie, for a very good map of the Huertgen, follow Lip's link and click on "maps."

Lip, excellent link, I've been reading it all morning.

Paul

Some of The "Green Books" are now available on CD, which is how I got a bunch of mine, and others were reprinted for the 50th anniversary of the war.

Check with the Army Historical Center and the Government Printing Office. the National Historical Society also reprinted a bunch, and the others are on the web at E-Bay and Abebooks.com

I have a bunch of them. They're definitely worth reading. Geoffrey Perret admired their intellectual austerity and the way they deglamorized the war in favor of accurate descriptions of what happened.

http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/index.php?showtopic=6959

A site with the Hurtgen photos.

Thats a great website, with lots of photos, puts my 3 photos to shame.

A German book with lots of photos of the battles and area is Hölle im Hürtgenwald Published in Aachen, but maybe available on EBay. I found the book good just for the photos, as I havn't read all the text (I am not fast at reading German). If you can read a little german it helps working out the captions to the photos, but probably still worth look if you can't.

Neil

Great website. I didn´t know much about Huertgen until I read Stephen Ambrose´s "Citizens Soldiers". Recently, I watched an interesting TV movie wich depicts the battle (or part of it) and also the history of Pvt. Manning. Check it out: When Trumpets Fade

Sergio, we have debated the merits of "When Trumpets Fade." http://forums.wildbillguarnere.com/index.p...898&#entry11898

I've just finished reading Hell in Hurtgen Forest by Robert Rush. It's a history of the 22nd Regiment, 4th Infantry Division who fought in the forest for eighteen days. It took a few chapters to get really into it (too many statistics and graphs!), but the descriptions of the combat are quite enlightening - though it needs more personal accounts, but to be frank, you understand why the book lacks them when you see the casualties the Regiment sustained.

And I fully understand the Passchendaele analogy having read this now

Has anyone seen "On Common Ground"? I've searched for discussion on this documentary here but found no results.

It describes a reunion of American and German vets who fought in the Huertgen Forest. Tom Brokaw and Walter Cronkite make appearances. This was made in 1999.

I won't give anything away, but typical of what you will see is a scene involving two vets from both sides looking at the edge of the forest. Talk about reconcilliation, the German vet has an American 9th Division pin on his tie...

Very moving documentary, two thumbs up.

Paul

*BUMP*

I haven't seen this thread or the the films about it, so given the recent activity on the subject I bumped it.

Doug,

Excellent thread and thanks for the insight into a battle your father fought in which I knew little about.

Excellent posts and links. Will make a point in reading more and watch the films good or bad.

Ian

Talked to DOD tonight and he alerted me that tonight's edition of "War Stories" by Ollie North on Fox is about the Huertgen.

The primary German talking head is Klaus Shultz, a veteran of the Huertgen, and the historian who escorted DOD and me around the Huertgen in 1994. He is authoritative and well spoken. And he led us to the very-difficult-to-find ruins of the Frenzerburg.

One of the American talking heads is Col. Ed Miller, who wrote the book "A Dark and Bloody Ground," which extensively quotes DOD. And with whom I've spoken and corresponded.

Sorry for the late notice; I just found out tonight. Take a look if it's repeated.

UPDATE: Wow! Ed Miller and Ollie North are walking the Kall Trail. With commentary by the tanker, Ray Fleig, whose tank was knocked out and blocked the trail. And discussion of Lt. Leonard, a MOH winner who was a class ahead of DOD at Texas A&M and was killed in the attack on Schmidt. Lt. Leonard's A&M ring was returned to his family in 2000 by the son of a German veteran who found it.

And the Second Rangers' assault on Castle Hill. With a view from Castle Hill that makes it seem like an Alp. Rare stuff.

And some video illustrations of just how dense the Huertgen was and remains.

PS: Ian, a belated thanks for the bump and the interest. Thanks, Doug